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Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by Keiko1981 » Mar 11th, '20, 20:16

Recently I have seen an increase in "I will post on my Patreon first, and then here at D-Addicts" I have been contacted about this recently, up until now I've let it pass by. I don't want it to become a trend here so something has to be said.

As of March 2019, all subtitles are to be posted in this forum. No external subtitles are allowed.

Feel free to create a topic here when you have any subtitles to post.

D-Addicts are not be be used as an advertisement platform, because it could possibly lead to (legal) issues for the site. If you want to advertise your subtitles (product), then you can do it on other platforms such as Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, tumblr etc

In short, why it won't be allowed
1. Possible legal issues for D-Addicts.
2. Fraud.
3. Customer of paid subtitles being disappointed with product and starting an argument here.

Then the admins / mods would have to deal with one or several things of the above, and sort out the mess.

One thing less to worry about for staff.

Like someone said.

"All this really makes me want to quit subbing."

@Ruroshin @MoerkJ
Giving you a heads up about this too, in case you have something to add.

2020-Mar-21 Answer from admin Ruroshin
If you would like to keep your Patreon exclusive, you're more than welcome to do. Just don't post it on DA until you're ready to publish it for all members of DA. Also, you can mention your Patreon for donations without any mention of exclusives.

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by burnerboy » Mar 11th, '20, 20:26

Thank you Keiko

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by startrek » Mar 19th, '20, 11:54

Thanks, Keiko.

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by SusieQ » Mar 19th, '20, 13:07

Does this new rule apply to the subtitle announcements forum? A cursory glance in that forum and at the rules, this wasn't clear.
- For example, the subber announces a project, however, they will post the subs behind a paywall first and then here after a delay. Perhaps asking users to PM them for the link to the paywall (i.e. patreon). Does this break the rules?
- In addition to that, if there's no mention of a paywall in the announcement, but users find out about it via PM, has the subber broken the rules? A user would have to report the infraction. Would the rule be enforced and how so?
(In that case, wouldn't it be the users who lose out? Deleting the announcement, banning the user. The subs would never be posted here, even after a delay. So I'm not suggesting you add this to the rules but maybe keep user friendliness in mind?)

Does this rule apply to signatures? Avatars? The website link on profiles?

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by Keiko1981 » Mar 19th, '20, 13:22

I wrote "no advertisement of subtitles in advance" so fansubbers still would be able to have links in their first post.

If we would have to go one step further with this, then I'm afraid we wouldn't allow it for anyone at all.

And if that were to happen, I'm sure there are many who wouldn't be happy. But maybe it's something that has to be done.

This all mess was started by @Gabrielmpf who advertised paid subtitles in advance, and @TVLover10 decided to do the same.

@Ruroshin or @MoerkJ Say something.

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by Gabrielmpf » Mar 19th, '20, 13:48

Keiko1981 wrote: Mar 19th, '20, 13:22 I wrote "no advertisement of subtitles in advance" so fansubbers still would be able to have links in their first post.

If we would have to go one step further with this, then I'm afraid we wouldn't allow it for anyone at all.

And if that were to happen, I'm sure there are many who wouldn't be happy. But maybe it's something that has to be done.

This all mess was started by @Gabrielmpf who advertised paid subtitles in advance, and @TVLover10 decided to do the same.

@Ruroshin or @MoerkJ Say something.
No, this mess didn't start with Gabrielmpf. This mess started by someone who decided to go tell-tale behind the scenes without having a proper conversation in an open forum and ask the members how they felt about it. Here's an idea, put it to a vote. Let the users decide what they want. Don't decide things unilaterally. You didn't seem to have a problem with my Patreon when you "Thank" my announcement post. You deleted the post after someone told you to do so. That's not how a a moderator should do things. You hear both sides. That's just someone with the power to delete posts.

I think the forum moderators should worry more about some subbers who announce multiple projects at the same time and take months or years to finish them, if ever. Or those who simply dropped their project without any explanation and yet continue to visit the forum regularly. You should worry about these behaviors and start making rules for picking up dramas. Think about the ones who follow a drama and have to wait indefinitely for the subber to decide to finish what they started in the first place.

Why should someone decide what others do with their time and efforts? Why does it bother someone so much trying to make some money with their hard work? I never said I wouldn't post subs here. It was one mere week in delay. That's all.

/Rant over

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by SusieQ » Mar 19th, '20, 14:46

I wrote "no advertisement of subtitles in advance" so fansubbers still would be able to have links in their first post.
ah, now I understand. i had to reread that sentence so many times for my brain to figure it out. i think that's just me, though. thanks.

@Gabrielmpf

I'm going to copy and paste what I wrote to keiko in a pm.
this is so crazy. it reminds me of when streaming sites first came about. =/ subbers dropping out, so much drama. and it was just a year ago you had to add the rule disallowing empty threads with links to external subs. i never imagined it would come to this.

on the one hand, i want subbers to feel supported. i contributed to a blitzlilz's patreon, but that was for softsubs when hardsubs are readily available on their site and there is no delay. more importantly, they don't post here. in that case, i suppose it's a good thing d-a no longer has torrents; could you imagine someone doing what blitzlilz is but with torrents on here? the uproar!

ko-fi is one thing; i support that because it's optional. but that "patreon first, then here" thing is [maybe ill-advised]. trying to make a business of fansubs, that's so close to what streaming sites are doing, what scummy sellers on ebay have done selling bootleg dvds.
to clarify. you're not that scummy. those scammers are stealing fansubbers' work and taking credit for profit. in spirit thought, it's that ask for money that's got people antsy. for as long as i have been watching fansubs, no one has ever asked me for money upfront until now. sure, lots of donation asks. and legal streaming sites with their paid memberships (really a win for fans tbh) but to straight up buy fansubs? nah. never done it. by fans for fans, right? i want to say all the more power to you. i want to support you, help you buy a better computer if you need. crowdfund to purchase those blurays. donate when i can.

but man, i won't pay for early access. i've never complained about it; i was surprised when keiko put up this rule. me, i was just going to ignore it. but here we are. new rule for a new era of technology. and that's my 2 cents.
I think the forum moderators should worry more about some subbers who announce multiple projects at the same time and take months or years to finish them, if ever. Or those who simply dropped their project without any explanation and yet continue to visit the forum regularly. You should worry about these behaviors and start making rules for picking up dramas. Think about the ones who follow a drama and have to wait indefinitely for the subber to decide to finish what they started in the first place.
okay, let's talk about that. it sucks, but in a free market, fans making subs for study or as a hobby, something on the side, people are free to come and go as they please. people get busy at work, at school, at home. people lose interest. people suffer injuries. people die. but hey, it was free.

i agree, though/ those folks who pick up project after project and they never finish or take literally years to complete just one if even that, they're bad actors. hey, because you got called out, let's call them out. i'm talking about you, @madman227. you ever going to finish one of the projects you started? seriously? stop picking up new shows. ignore your wife. or upload the episode if they're done. doesn't have to be perfect. sheesh.

but i digress. imagine someone like you, gabe, asks people for money to access subs early. 2 weeks, a month. then for whatever reason they have to drop the series, or maybe they just disappear. they close your patreon account without notice. months later the series is marked as dropped by a mod on d-a. subber's unreachable here and elsewhere. but this time it's different, money changed hands. people paid a fee with the expectation the subber would finish those subs. you what that's called then? fraud. patreon won't care. not really. technically fansubs are illegal; patrons should have known better.

the free market we have here on d-a, that level of bs can't happen. fans know (and they SHOULD, gd) to keep their expectations low; subbers are free to do what they want/need to. be great if they would all just stick it out, but i get it. sometimes they can't. or they don't want to. sometimes they say so, sometimes they just disappear. why? maybe they're ashamed, who knows. maybe they died. morbid thought, but it's happened before. rip.

it's when you make it a monetary transaction that messes everything up. whether it's selling ad space or time. it always ends in legal action eventually.

p.s. i didn't know this was a unilateral decision. if complaining is all it takes then i demand all mention of christmas is banned. i'm not joking.

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by madman227 » Mar 19th, '20, 22:28

Okay, I will drop all my projects as of now and stop working on them and not release what I already finished. It was great subbing all the shows and I hope people can continue to do what I did.

I don't like drama and people insulting me and my work that I do FOR FREE on my own free time and even saying to release incomplete subs with bad english? If you want to do them, please go ahead and do them.

I have a life and work, at the moment we are dealing with a health crisis and I'm on the frontline risking my life and working when I should be home because I'm on the high risk group of contracting the disease and die and I work in a hospital.

Reading this just made me quit and stop working in what I'm doing, go to the streaming websites and ask them to do them by themselves.

And yes, I DO release everything here and for free when I feel it's ready.

I had one show ready to release here, it was Doctor Y from 2018 (Doctor-X spin off) and now I won't do it. One of those shows I picked up when I had other shows to do, because I wanted to do it and it has been 2 years and there was no english subs and people who are fans of Doctor X like me wanted to see it.

And I was also working on episode 6 of Heaven and had 30% done. I will keep doing it for me and for my "wife". Was trying to finish it, because there is another show coming with Satomi and I was ready to pick it up if nobody would do it.

When I feel like it I will do more and watch the shows with my wife and have a good time.

I just see people leaving and stop subbing, I now know why. You want it all done yesterday and fast? How many older shows have no subs or incomplete subs? Do you also demand them to be done?

I started this to give back to people that have done a great job in the past and in the present, but clearly there are people that think that can give orders and still complain that it's not done as fast as they want? Really? I have a life, work and also do want to enjoy time with my family. What I do is because I love japanese drama and also know others want to enjoy it as well. It takes time from out lives, if some want some compensation but still release it for free here it's up to people to donate because they enjoy it or not if they want it free or have no way of repaying them. When I lost my laptop or had hardware issues I never asked one cent from people, I can imagine if I did put a link up what the uproar of some people would type here.

Also a Patreon can be cancelled, if someone stops doing subs and doesn't tell people about it, you can still end your donation.
And people donate whatever they want, they are not forced to do it. And it still gets them the subs for free after a week or two depending of what rules people create or even it's shared at the same time. There are other people not even posting the subs here and asking for donations.

And some like me don't ask for anything and do them for free, it's our option. Even so nobody has the right to demand anything from us, I never did and never will do that.

Since we have this health crisis, I could have died and nobody would know...since I'm dealing with it daily at work, helping sick people.

Yes, I picked a few projects because people wanted to see them and nobody was doing them. One of them was left behind because of my increased workload, but I never stopped doing them. What would be best? To drop them and have no subs? If it's best, here's my response...

I drop all of them as of now and quit doing this and keep my subs for myself and my "wife". For me to be dropped into this discussion was the last straw.

I kept them free even if I was offered to do them and be payed and keeping them away from people and I refused.

But then again I should have been more "greedy" or put up a website full of ads and patreon asking for money and not even release the subs here on d-addicts. Then you would go to a streaming site and get it for "free". I guess people don't realize that it's this kind of behavior that drives away subbers from here when they expect things for free and think they have a right to demand something from the subbers when all they do is to provide something for everyone to enjoy.

Thanks and goodbye. I will still be around but not posting any subs.
Last edited by madman227 on Mar 20th, '20, 14:30, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by kowaihitotachi » Mar 20th, '20, 01:17

I once had a tantrum and quite subtitling because streaming sites would steal subs and profit from them. Then I realized I don't sub for anyone but me, to study Japanese language. So when I finish something, why not share it. Now I don't bother with taking credit because I only do it for myself. I love watching Jdrama, and I hope others can love it a little more with my subs. That's all. I derive my benefit by becoming more familiar with the language. Don't care about anything else. Someday I may disappear without a word. But to all subbers, thank you for all you have subbed, I have enjoyed watching Jdrama because of your work!

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by glee77 » Mar 20th, '20, 06:28

SusieQ wrote: Mar 19th, '20, 14:46
I wrote "no advertisement of subtitles in advance" so fansubbers still would be able to have links in their first post.
ah, now I understand. i had to reread that sentence so many times for my brain to figure it out. i think that's just me, though. thanks.

@Gabrielmpf

I'm going to copy and paste what I wrote to keiko in a pm.
this is so crazy. it reminds me of when streaming sites first came about. =/ subbers dropping out, so much drama. and it was just a year ago you had to add the rule disallowing empty threads with links to external subs. i never imagined it would come to this.

on the one hand, i want subbers to feel supported. i contributed to a blitzlilz's patreon, but that was for softsubs when hardsubs are readily available on their site and there is no delay. more importantly, they don't post here. in that case, i suppose it's a good thing d-a no longer has torrents; could you imagine someone doing what blitzlilz is but with torrents on here? the uproar!

ko-fi is one thing; i support that because it's optional. but that "patreon first, then here" thing is [maybe ill-advised]. trying to make a business of fansubs, that's so close to what streaming sites are doing, what scummy sellers on ebay have done selling bootleg dvds.
to clarify. you're not that scummy. those scammers are stealing fansubbers' work and taking credit for profit. in spirit thought, it's that ask for money that's got people antsy. for as long as i have been watching fansubs, no one has ever asked me for money upfront until now. sure, lots of donation asks. and legal streaming sites with their paid memberships (really a win for fans tbh) but to straight up buy fansubs? nah. never done it. by fans for fans, right? i want to say all the more power to you. i want to support you, help you buy a better computer if you need. crowdfund to purchase those blurays. donate when i can.

but man, i won't pay for early access. i've never complained about it; i was surprised when keiko put up this rule. me, i was just going to ignore it. but here we are. new rule for a new era of technology. and that's my 2 cents.
I think the forum moderators should worry more about some subbers who announce multiple projects at the same time and take months or years to finish them, if ever. Or those who simply dropped their project without any explanation and yet continue to visit the forum regularly. You should worry about these behaviors and start making rules for picking up dramas. Think about the ones who follow a drama and have to wait indefinitely for the subber to decide to finish what they started in the first place.
okay, let's talk about that. it sucks, but in a free market, fans making subs for study or as a hobby, something on the side, people are free to come and go as they please. people get busy at work, at school, at home. people lose interest. people suffer injuries. people die. but hey, it was free.

i agree, though/ those folks who pick up project after project and they never finish or take literally years to complete just one if even that, they're bad actors. hey, because you got called out, let's call them out. i'm talking about you, @madman227. you ever going to finish one of the projects you started? seriously? stop picking up new shows. ignore your wife. or upload the episode if they're done. doesn't have to be perfect. sheesh.

but i digress. imagine someone like you, gabe, asks people for money to access subs early. 2 weeks, a month. then for whatever reason they have to drop the series, or maybe they just disappear. they close your patreon account without notice. months later the series is marked as dropped by a mod on d-a. subber's unreachable here and elsewhere. but this time it's different, money changed hands. people paid a fee with the expectation the subber would finish those subs. you what that's called then? fraud. patreon won't care. not really. technically fansubs are illegal; patrons should have known better.

the free market we have here on d-a, that level of bs can't happen. fans know (and they SHOULD, gd) to keep their expectations low; subbers are free to do what they want/need to. be great if they would all just stick it out, but i get it. sometimes they can't. or they don't want to. sometimes they say so, sometimes they just disappear. why? maybe they're ashamed, who knows. maybe they died. morbid thought, but it's happened before. rip.

it's when you make it a monetary transaction that messes everything up. whether it's selling ad space or time. it always ends in legal action eventually.

p.s. i didn't know this was a unilateral decision. if complaining is all it takes then i demand all mention of christmas is banned. i'm not joking.

So, the person you mentioned first said "I will post subs a week after my patreon" and you got mad at waiting for a week?
Since the subs would go to d-addicts anyways, you still got bothered by one week.

And the second person is talking long to release subs cause he has several on-going projects and you got mad cause of that.

well, now one of them dropped his projects, what will you get mad at?

Really, in a close community where the subbers are getting fewer and fewer, is it worth it to alienate them like this?
Especially since all the other people except you are waiting patiently.

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by SusieQ » Mar 21st, '20, 02:08

glee77 wrote:So, the person you mentioned first said "I will post subs a week after my patreon" and you got mad at waiting for a week?
Since the subs would go to d-addicts anyways, you still got bothered by one week.
Woah woah woah. I NEVER complained about the paid advertisement of subtitles. I wasn't one of the users who did that. I even said so in my post.
me wrote:i've never complained about it; i was surprised when keiko put up this rule. me, i was just going to ignore it.
I was never mad about that. I'm still not mad about it. I was trying to explain why I think some people are mad about it. Guess I wasn't clear. Oh well.

The only person I've ever gotten mad at, yeah, it's madman227.

@madman227 So you don't have a wife?
From the Radiation SP:
madman227 wrote:Since I'm a big fan of the show and nobody is doing it, and my wife keeps bugging me to do it...
I'm not usually mad at someone for taking so long but you actually broke me. I dropped Heaven ages ago. You started Heaven in July of 2019. You released episode 4 in October 2019 and didn't come out with episode 5 until February 2020. ALMOST FIVE MONTHS. Sure, I've waited one or two months for subs, even a bit longer. Because people have lives and most sub as a hobby, for learning. for whatever. Please, take your time to finish a series. But in that 5 month span between episodes you picked up at least 2 other projects. You still hadn't finished one, and added more? Why? WHY.

Look, I'm a writer (hobby) and I used to have a habit of starting new projects before finishing old ones. It go so bad I never finished anything. I'm writing for myself, don't even share, and I got mad at myself for that. Because it makes no sense whatsoever to keep starting new projects and taking years to finish anything. At your rate, Heaven wouldn't have been finished until 2021. I'm ungrateful? Yes, yes I am. But just to you.

I don't care that you dropped everything. In fact, I'm grateful.

Please, everyone get mad at me for forcing his hand. PM me your thoughts. I will accept whatever complaints you have. But don't blame madman227. Clearly, it was all my fault.

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by Keiko1981 » Mar 21st, '20, 02:58

Like I said in the first post. I started seeing more and more people making posts like "I will post my paid subtitles at my Patreaon first." (Basically using D-Addicts as an advertisement platform).

First and foremost, I have the interest of D-Addicts in mind.

1. Possible legal issues for D-Addicts.
2. Fraud.
3. Customer of paid subtitles being disappointed with product and starting an argument here.

Then the admins / mods would have to deal with one or several things of the above, and sort out the mess.

Now we're waiting to hear what @Ruroshin has to say about paid subs and donations, so we can get all of this sorted out once and for all. He is the main administrator and has the final say.

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by madman227 » Mar 21st, '20, 04:12

I had a long reply, but I will keep it short:

1 ) I always posted messages and changed status on the threads and always was available by PM.
2 ) I have a wife and a daughter and posting that making it seem I invented a wife and that way calling me a liar is wrong.
3 ) You could have sent me a PM about it and I we would have a nice discussion and probably you would understand how hard sometimes life is with computer problems, a demanding and stressful work in a hospital, a wife and daughter that also needs your attention and your part in the household duties and coming from work and needing some rest. Sometimes I was up until 4 am doing subs and had work at 8am and had to get up at 7am and I was still doing subs.
4 ) Yes, people asked me to pick up other shows and I did because nobody was doing them. Also I did one and only announced it last week because I knew it was ready to share and also was doing it so I could have finished Heaven as quickly as I could and it has been my priority since then.
5 ) You were frustrated for not getting things faster? Well imagine my frustration for not having enough time to finish them. Mad is a different feeling that I got when I read your first message and your reply still attacking me without being necessary, even calling me a liar because of posting that my wife wants to see the shows, but she knows my time is limited and that I will do them (if nothing bad happens to me at work or in life).
6 ) How many people announce things and you don't see them post never again? Or drop a show and never explain why...or even come back months later and explain they were busy with life and resume work? For that I'm always grateful and not mad that they came and filled a show it would probably never been finished or subbed like so many older shows and even newer shows. Look at GabrielF and how he finished an older show Tokyo Sentimental that had been dropped. If I didn't started it, maybe nobody would do it and you would be even more frustrated that you couldn't watch the show with subs.
7 ) We do this for fun and at least for me for free and for the fans and the ones that made possible for me to discover Japanese drama and try to give back to them what they gave to me.
8 ) Yes, I dropped them and could have decided otherwise. But after reading your reply...I guess the streaming sites are not only to blame for us to quit our subs, it's the keyboard warriors that lash out to people that did nothing wrong them except give them moments of pleasure watching their favorite dramas. Did I asked for money from you? Did I made any empty promises? Did I disappeared without a trace? Did I invented a health crisis to make me work harder and risk my life taking me some precious free time? You could have not mentioned by name and all would be fine, but by targeting me you made it personal and that made me mad. Just enjoy what is given to you for free.
9) You know what...I started something and I will finish it in my own time, not for you because you clearly will not watch any of my subs that I will post. Don't expect anything anymore from me, when you see a show subbed by me just skip it and watch something else so you don't get frustrated, angry or mad. No expectations and you won't die of stress. Let others appreciate the hard work and love I put for free on my work. That way everyone wins and you can stay healthy and less angry at someone. In the times we live I'm willing to make other be happy and smile with my fan work and as someone says Live Long and Prosper.

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by Keiko1981 » Mar 21st, '20, 07:49

:offtopic: Use common sense. Don't pick up more things than what you have time for, and know you can finish within a reasonable time. Especially when it comes to airing / popular dramas. People more or less expect new subtitles to be released 1 week after an episode has aired, if it hasn't they start to wonder. (Not just you madman227)

Few people trying to do many things. And that's why it's good to wait with watching a drama until it's been completely subbed.

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by Ruroshin » Mar 21st, '20, 18:20

First of all, sorry for the late response. I have not read all the posts on the topic, but I will try to answer the main issue here.

I understand the need to compensate people for their time and effort, even when it's not for commercial purposes. Asking for donations is one thing, but doing exclusives for donations doesn't sound like an actual "donation model." You do it regardless of how much compensation you get.

If you would like to keep your Patreon exclusive, you're more than welcome to do. Just don't post it on DA until you're ready to publish it for all members of DA. Also, you can mention your Patreon for donations without any mention of exclusives.

@Keiko1981 @SusieQ @Gabrielmpf @madman227 Let me know if there's something else I can address regarding this issue.

Please start a new topic if you have other questions that do not relate to this topic. Thank you!

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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by dhisashi » May 25th, '20, 17:22

kowaihitotachi wrote: Mar 20th, '20, 01:17 I once had a tantrum and quite subtitling because streaming sites would steal subs and profit from them. Then I realized I don't sub for anyone but me, to study Japanese language. So when I finish something, why not share it. Now I don't bother with taking credit because I only do it for myself. I love watching Jdrama, and I hope others can love it a little more with my subs. That's all. I derive my benefit by becoming more familiar with the language. Don't care about anything else. Someday I may disappear without a word. But to all subbers, thank you for all you have subbed, I have enjoyed watching Jdrama because of your work!
Thank you for all the subs that you provide! :salut:

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dhisashi
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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by dhisashi » May 25th, '20, 17:27

madman227 wrote: Mar 21st, '20, 04:12 I had a long reply, but I will keep it short:
<Giant Skip>
I believe there are many of us here at D-Addicts that are like me and patiently wait for subs without complaining. So please ignore those that complain which is hard to do.

I personally appreciate the hard work that you and others have put in. Sorry for this late response but I just now stumbled onto this Post.

I see that you have continued to provide subs and I hope that you will continue to do so and post them here at your own pace.

:salut: . :salut: . :salut:

namihodai
Posts: 436
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Re: Advertisement of paid subtitles

Post by namihodai » Jun 14th, '20, 20:35

dhisashi wrote: May 25th, '20, 17:27
madman227 wrote: Mar 21st, '20, 04:12 I had a long reply, but I will keep it short:
<Giant Skip>
I believe there are many of us here at D-Addicts that are like me and patiently wait for subs without complaining. So please ignore those that complain which is hard to do.

I personally appreciate the hard work that you and others have put in. Sorry for this late response but I just now stumbled onto this Post.

I see that you have continued to provide subs and I hope that you will continue to do so and post them here at your own pace.

:salut: . :salut: . :salut:
cannot put my thoughts into words better than dhisashi. Waiting for subs is no problem at all for me!
thank you sankyuu 39

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