After seeing 9 episodes of it I found I just had to start a thread on this wonderful drama.
Ryoma Den
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Ryoma_den
I thought it started out a bit shaky since the young Ryoma and Yataro were played by (really good) actors that were too old for the role. Now that the story is developing, it turns out to have been a good choice. The actors are the heavyweights that this historical drama needs.
The story is one of humanitarian vs. (somewhat understandably) fanatic beliefs in the stormy times just before the Meiji restoration.
I especially want to exclaim my admiration for Fukuyama Masaharu, who shines as Sakamoto Ryoma! He plays him as a real warm and sensible character with a big heart. this is (only) the third adaption of this character that I've seen yet (the others being Tamaki Hiroshi in Atsu hime and Uchino Masaaki in Jin) and the most convincing I think.
The rest of the cast is quite magnificent as well and the writing has been good.
All in all I hope to be able to see this series to the end!
[Discussion] Ryoma Den
I agree that the Fukuyama Masaharu, so far, has brought out the warm and sensible side of his character.
Uchino Masaaki, on the other hand, portrayed Sakamoto Ryoma to be revolutionary in vision, and somewhat eccentric in personality. I personally hope that we'll be able to see similar traits in future Ryoma Den episodes.
As for Tamaki Hiroshi, I felt that his black high cut shoes left the biggest impression.
Like our protagonist, I feel that this drama hasn't really taken off yet. Makes me wonder if the producers are saving the better scenes for later.
On a side note, I think Kagawa Teruyukii needs to tone down on his acting, before he steals the thunder of this show.
Uchino Masaaki, on the other hand, portrayed Sakamoto Ryoma to be revolutionary in vision, and somewhat eccentric in personality. I personally hope that we'll be able to see similar traits in future Ryoma Den episodes.
As for Tamaki Hiroshi, I felt that his black high cut shoes left the biggest impression.
Like our protagonist, I feel that this drama hasn't really taken off yet. Makes me wonder if the producers are saving the better scenes for later.
On a side note, I think Kagawa Teruyukii needs to tone down on his acting, before he steals the thunder of this show.
I've just had a chance to watch the season 2 trailer (from episode 14 on) and it looks like the action is really picking up. Ryoma turns ronin in that episode and you continue to see more character development from there.
I like the approach they used showing how little by little young Ryoma changes in to the well-known hero of the later day. It's certainly more credible that having him start off as a kid-version of Uchino Masaaki's Ryoma from the very start.
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I like the approach they used showing how little by little young Ryoma changes in to the well-known hero of the later day. It's certainly more credible that having him start off as a kid-version of Uchino Masaaki's Ryoma from the very start.
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I think the Ryouma of this drama is too good to be true. But I still love him despite of that. I read somewhere that the writer wanted to portray Ryouma as a character that many people today would be able to relate to. I'm seeing their focus on Ryouma's selflessness, humility and innocence (like I said, too good!) Uchino Masaaki's Ryouma, OTOH, is closer to the real thing. I'm reading Marius Jansen's book on Ryouma and that book mentions stuff about Ryouma that is very similar to Uchino's portrayal. I'm looking forward to how Fukuyama Masaharu's Ryouma will transform into the Ryouma that history books have depicted him to be.
Don't forget Eguchi Yousuke's Ryouma in Shinsengumi. When I saw him, I thought he was the best Ryouma ever. That changed when I saw Uchino. And now, it's changed again because of Fukuyama. As for Tamaki Hiroshi's Ryouma, I can't say I'm impressed. I don't think he is able to pull it off. Sorry.
I'm loving each episode of Ryoumaden and just imagining the stories ahead drives me crazy. I'm thankful taiga dramas are shown for one whole year! Yay!
@Izumisano: do you know the title of the second season? ^_^
Don't forget Eguchi Yousuke's Ryouma in Shinsengumi. When I saw him, I thought he was the best Ryouma ever. That changed when I saw Uchino. And now, it's changed again because of Fukuyama. As for Tamaki Hiroshi's Ryouma, I can't say I'm impressed. I don't think he is able to pull it off. Sorry.
I'm loving each episode of Ryoumaden and just imagining the stories ahead drives me crazy. I'm thankful taiga dramas are shown for one whole year! Yay!
@Izumisano: do you know the title of the second season? ^_^
From NHK official website & Ryomaden jp wiki :
SEASON 1: Ryoma the Dreamer (Ep.01~13) Average Rating - 21.4%
SEASON 2: Ryoma the Adventurer (Ep.14~27)
SEASON 3: Ryoma the Navigator (Ep.28~??)
SEASON 4: Ryoma the Hope
Not sure if it's any indication of the story covered in Season 2, but apparently Oryo appears towards the end of the season.
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SEASON 1: Ryoma the Dreamer (Ep.01~13) Average Rating - 21.4%
SEASON 2: Ryoma the Adventurer (Ep.14~27)
SEASON 3: Ryoma the Navigator (Ep.28~??)
SEASON 4: Ryoma the Hope
Not sure if it's any indication of the story covered in Season 2, but apparently Oryo appears towards the end of the season.
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Thank you for your reactions! It's the first drama I started a discussion thread for and was kinda afraid that there would be no replies. It would be a lonely discussion then.
Glad you like it as much as I do. Just like with Atsu Hime it took a few eps for me to get into it. But now I'm hooked.
I've ordered the Biography of Ryouma by Marius B. Jansen as well. An obsession developing! Been reading some translated letters as well. It's a time warp thingy ; )
Checked the wiki and didn't learn much more than I had already learned through the other drama's with him in it.
I liked the pictures of him and Oryo though. He seems handsome and tough, she seems smart and sharp... and tough.
Glad you like it as much as I do. Just like with Atsu Hime it took a few eps for me to get into it. But now I'm hooked.
I've ordered the Biography of Ryouma by Marius B. Jansen as well. An obsession developing! Been reading some translated letters as well. It's a time warp thingy ; )
Checked the wiki and didn't learn much more than I had already learned through the other drama's with him in it.
I liked the pictures of him and Oryo though. He seems handsome and tough, she seems smart and sharp... and tough.
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monkeymachine
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Nov 15th, '06, 16:21
Lately, I've seen comments in forums elsewhere claiming that NHK stated they wanted to "remake"and "remodel" Ryoma for the new 21st century audience. That's why this Ryoma will be "nicer and have clean cloths and be well groomed". I guess anyone who has seen Ryomaden Season 2 (Ep 14~16) will know that these comments have been misquoted. I'm a bit bothered by this. Honestly I don't see the logic of a dirty Ryoma BEFORE he turns ronin.
Jin's take on Ryoma is frozen in the short space of time that he is a ronin. Ryomaden looks at the growth and evolvement of this character as a person. It's how Ryoma changes that makes this taiga interesting. Both are great shows but cannot be compared like for like. I can't see Ryomaden using Jin's approach for the entire year.
In order to provide viewers with NHK's true position on this drama, I've translated an interview by NHK with the screenwriter Fukada Yasushi. The original interview can viewed in Japanese on the NHK official Ryomaden site here - http://www9.nhk.or.jp/ryomaden/topics/0 ... ew/01.html
The translated NHK Interview on their approach for the Ryomaden series is here:
http://mashaheart.net/2010/04/23/fukuda ... ew-200911/
I've also added a link to it in the softsubs thread.
Sorry for the rant. (and the duplication....I've posted it on the subs thread first, then thought it better to put it back here.)
BTW, antspace, I'm also looking forward to O'ryo's grand entrance. She appears in ep22 (airs May 30 in Japan)
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Jin's take on Ryoma is frozen in the short space of time that he is a ronin. Ryomaden looks at the growth and evolvement of this character as a person. It's how Ryoma changes that makes this taiga interesting. Both are great shows but cannot be compared like for like. I can't see Ryomaden using Jin's approach for the entire year.
In order to provide viewers with NHK's true position on this drama, I've translated an interview by NHK with the screenwriter Fukada Yasushi. The original interview can viewed in Japanese on the NHK official Ryomaden site here - http://www9.nhk.or.jp/ryomaden/topics/0 ... ew/01.html
The translated NHK Interview on their approach for the Ryomaden series is here:
http://mashaheart.net/2010/04/23/fukuda ... ew-200911/
I've also added a link to it in the softsubs thread.
Sorry for the rant. (and the duplication....I've posted it on the subs thread first, then thought it better to put it back here.)
BTW, antspace, I'm also looking forward to O'ryo's grand entrance. She appears in ep22 (airs May 30 in Japan)
.
Sorry, have been neglecting the thread. Was too busy at work I'm afraid.
izumisano san no worries about the ranting, some things got to be said
Loved the interview with Fukada Yasushi san. Interesting to see how he developed the concept and the way he is involved in the production proces!
Looking forward to the entrance of O ryo san! It's still a bit of a wait though
I'm actually two eps behind, so will have to catch up! If the translations of episode 14 will come out I can have a marathon
izumisano san no worries about the ranting, some things got to be said
Loved the interview with Fukada Yasushi san. Interesting to see how he developed the concept and the way he is involved in the production proces!
Looking forward to the entrance of O ryo san! It's still a bit of a wait though
I'm actually two eps behind, so will have to catch up! If the translations of episode 14 will come out I can have a marathon
People, how come no-one is discussing ep. 18?
I personally found that episode so hard to understand.
I asked Izumisano for help.
I wrote some questions and the answer I've got was so amazing.
It help me so much that I asked if I could share it with all of you.
I'll disclose our private messages regarding episode 18 and our interpretations
of the characters' behavior.
There is no right or wrong.
So, please feel to read our comments or share your own interpretations.
Text is very long so, I'll post it sometime later today at Ryomaden discussion thread.
I personally found that episode so hard to understand.
I asked Izumisano for help.
I wrote some questions and the answer I've got was so amazing.
It help me so much that I asked if I could share it with all of you.
I'll disclose our private messages regarding episode 18 and our interpretations
of the characters' behavior.
There is no right or wrong.
So, please feel to read our comments or share your own interpretations.
Text is very long so, I'll post it sometime later today at Ryomaden discussion thread.
Part 1
Private discussion about episode 18 between Izumisano and Luna14: (unedited)
Private Message 1: Luna's Questions
I don't understand this episode...
Why Takeshi felt to the floor?
Was he poisoned?
This Morishita is "Chief Attendant" of Yodo (Ex-Tosa Damiyo), and Shibata Bingo is
"Chief Assitant" of (current Tosa Damiyo). Then, if Yodo is the ex-Tosa Damiyo,
why does Takechi thinks so highly of Yodo. Why were his plans "ruined" by the
departure of Yodo back to Tosa? Takechi has the support from current Tosa Daimyo.
So why does he cares so much for what Yodo does? I remember that Katsu said that
Yodo "ruled" Tosa in ep 17, but what about the current Tosa Damiyo?
How is he related to Yodo?
And if Yodo is the ex-Tosa Damiyo, what is he doing in Kyoto? Even if he has power,
he cannot perform the duties of the current Tosa Damiyo in public.
And why are the other Han-members suspecting Yodo of helping the emperor?
And what happens to all the other Kinnoto members?
Also, what happens to Shujiro?
He got called in by Morishita (Chief Ass. of Yodo)
And at the end of ep 18, he is joining Sanjo Santomi?
There is something missing.
If Shujiro had an understanding with Moshita/Yodo
why did he changed side to Sanjo Satomi?
Or is Moshita, working for Satomi behind Yodo's back?
And why is the Tokugawa Iemochi given out a day for Joi?
The Bakufu don't want joi. Okay, they are not suppose to leave Edo,
but can't they just make something up. Like, playing sick or something...
I don't quite get it...
Private discussion about episode 18 between Izumisano and Luna14: (unedited)
Private Message 1: Luna's Questions
I don't understand this episode...
Why Takeshi felt to the floor?
Was he poisoned?
This Morishita is "Chief Attendant" of Yodo (Ex-Tosa Damiyo), and Shibata Bingo is
"Chief Assitant" of (current Tosa Damiyo). Then, if Yodo is the ex-Tosa Damiyo,
why does Takechi thinks so highly of Yodo. Why were his plans "ruined" by the
departure of Yodo back to Tosa? Takechi has the support from current Tosa Daimyo.
So why does he cares so much for what Yodo does? I remember that Katsu said that
Yodo "ruled" Tosa in ep 17, but what about the current Tosa Damiyo?
How is he related to Yodo?
And if Yodo is the ex-Tosa Damiyo, what is he doing in Kyoto? Even if he has power,
he cannot perform the duties of the current Tosa Damiyo in public.
And why are the other Han-members suspecting Yodo of helping the emperor?
And what happens to all the other Kinnoto members?
Also, what happens to Shujiro?
He got called in by Morishita (Chief Ass. of Yodo)
And at the end of ep 18, he is joining Sanjo Santomi?
There is something missing.
If Shujiro had an understanding with Moshita/Yodo
why did he changed side to Sanjo Satomi?
Or is Moshita, working for Satomi behind Yodo's back?
And why is the Tokugawa Iemochi given out a day for Joi?
The Bakufu don't want joi. Okay, they are not suppose to leave Edo,
but can't they just make something up. Like, playing sick or something...
I don't quite get it...
Part 2
Private discussion about episode 18 between Izumisano and Luna14: (unedited)
Private Message 2: Izumisano's answer to Luna's question of ep. 18
1. Yodo
Even though his son is now daimyo (= Lord of Tosa), he is quite useless.
So Yodo still makes the decisions and the son becomes a puppet figure.
Practically, the ministers report to Yodo and ask for his approval instead
of the son. What Yodo says, everyone follows while the son basically enjoys
himself not needing to work. That's why they call Yodo the de facto Lord of
Tosa even though he is no longer daimyo. Also they call him the Great Lord (not ex-Lord),
meaning he's even higher than the Lord of Tosa.
It's interesting to see the same thing happen in Shimazu.
The father (who was never ever daimyo) makes all the decisions while the son takes on
the name. (Yodo met with him and the other daimyos in Kyoto in ep18.)
That's why Yodo and this guy were the ones who accompanied the Shogun on
his pilgrimage to Kyoto instead of their sons. They usually stay close to the Shogun
to be in the power game, so they can talk to the Shogun and influence him.
It seems Yodo was very well known as one of the most brilliant leaders and daimyos in
his time. So when he was put under house arrest in the Ansei purge, the people in
Tosa were furious. (Ep 10: "because of his criticism of Il Naisuke's policies, Yodo was
put on probation and had to hand over his duties to Yoshida Toyo." Il Naosuke was
the Tairo and Chief Senior Councillor of the Bakufu Elders, who took over after
Abe Masahiro retired.)
When Yodo was put on probation and house arrest, he was stripped of his daimyo
title. Theoretically, he should have passed the daimyo position to his son, but he
prefers to put Toyo as his deputy. That's because his son was too young and not
a strong leader. At the same time, Yodo himself is not allowed to see anyone
(except his household) during his house arrest, so he cannot do anything to help.
When Ii Naosuke was assassinated and Yodo released, he could not become
daimyo again. That's when he started ruling "behind-the-scene" through Toyo.
So Toyo's assissination messed up with Yodo's plans and took the power away
from Yodo, since Takechi started manipulating Yodo's son. Takechi didn't know this.
2. Takechi's plans
Takechi collapsed in ep18, because he had so strongly believed that everything he did
in promoting Joi, was for Yodo. He had assumed from Yodo's house arrest, that since
Ii Naosuke was pro-kaikoku, then Yodo must be pro-Joi. As since Yodo was opposing
the bakufu, then he Takechi will help Yodo fight the Bakufu.
So he set up the Tosa Kinnoto to take power away from the Bakufu. (In fact in ep13,
Toyo had already reminded him that Yodo would not turn against the Tokugawa,
but Takechi would not listen.....) Since he believes Yodo is such a brilliant leader, he
thinks Yodo should lead the country. Takechi, one-sidely thinks if he can promote Joi
in Tosa and in Japan, then Yodo as the Great Lord of Tosa, will rise to take power
and become the leader of Japan, after the Tokugawa are oppressed via Joi.
(He talked about his plans to Yodo in ep 18.)
You see, Takechi is not like Ryoma who thinks beyond the Han. Takechi has always
been "a loyal subject of the Han", perhaps the Han is even more important to him than
Joi. It seems he's using Joi as a means to grabbing more power for Yodo. But this is
just all his own thinking. He's really doing it for the Han and for Yodo, but as Yataro
said in ep13, Takechi's basic assumption was wrong.
In fact, Yodo (like many others) criticised Ii Naosuke for submitting to Perry and
the other countries too easily without any plans of protecting themselves. Yodo was
neither Joi nor Kaikoku. From his conversation with Katsu Kaishu where he said
"Japan cannot revert to his old ways anymore", you can say he was like Katsu,
he's open-minded and he thinks Japan should protect itself by becoming strong
through any means (including using western tech.) This was Yoshida Toyo's stance too.
Yodo's outburst towards the end of ep18 clarified to Takechi that Yodo
(and therefore Tosa) is pro-bakufu. Takechi finally realizes it and that his
strong belief in the past was all wrong. I don't think he'll let his followers
know Yodo's real stance because he's afraid to admit that he's been
misleading them.
Kyoto (and Edo) are the centres of influence since the Emperor and Shogun are
there. Once Yodo leaves, it means he's not interested in grabbing power, so
Takechi's plans are all ruined. He's done all that for nothing.
3. Shujiro
Since Yodo (Tosa) is pro-Bakufu, this explains the reason they used to arrest Shujiro
in ep19 (conspiring against the bakufu and against Tosa). When Shujiro went to pledge
his allegiance to the Sanjo and the kuge (or rather he thinks to the Emperor) to "reform"
or change Tosa, that put him as a traitor against his han.
Shujiro thinks he was working for Yodo, and the kuge idea must have been planted
by Yodo (or his man Morishita) and everything else that Shujiro must have done after
that. Morishita is following Yodo's instructions. They're manipulating Shujiro into
treason, so they could arrest him. Otherwise the Tosa gomawari would not be able
to know (and prove) Shujiro did anything wrong when they come for him in ep19.
(While they can't prove anything against Takechi who's obviously a much greater conspirator here.)
And of course, Shujiro doesn't question anything from Yodo at all. (Why would Yodo
need the kuge when he is already the most powerful man in Tosa? Shujiro should
have thought of that.) Perhaps everyone in the Kinnoto were led astray by
Takechi's assumptions that Yodo is anti-bakufu and pro-Emperor.
So by arresting Shujiro, they want to make him talk. Yodo's main target is simply
Takechi. But Yodo underestimates Shujiro and given the chance when the Emperor
turns his back on the Joi radicals (from Choshu) later, he throws the kinnoto members
into jail on conspiiracy charges against the Bakufu (we guess), since they were all
working with Choshu. Yodo couldn't do anything against the Kinnoto as long as
Choshu were in favour with the Emperor, as that would seem like he's going openly
against the Emperor. But once the Emperor cuts his ties with Choshu, Yodo can
bring them in.
He then tortures them into talking about the murders. (He can't torture Takechi who
is a Joshi.) Other than the murders (Toyo's assassination & Izo's killings), there's
really nothing solid to pin on them. It's really sad when everyone else is being tortured
but they still don't understand why, and they still earnestly believe in Takechi and
what they're doing was for Yodo/Joi/the "greater good". Only Takechi alone knows
they were misled by him and his blind assumptions. I wonder how they finally get
Takechi to end it.
4. Date for Joi
Tokugawa have plans up their sleeve as you will see in ep19. As first we thought they
were forced to give out a date, just so they can go back to Edo. But it seems they
have already thought of what to do when they return to Edo. In short, they just called
each daimyo up by himself and tell them, "The Emperor wants this, we've agreed to
the date, but frankly, we think that's not practical. So it's your choice who you want to
side with...." Of course, the daimyos don't dare to go against the Bakufu and on the
joi date, no-one (except Choshu Han) does anything. Choshu fire on a foreign ship
(British, I think?) who fires back and destroys all of Choshu's shoreline.
The foreigners further retaliate against the Choshu Han in war. Of course, Choshu
were beaten to the ground and the Emperor realizes Japan cannot stand up at all in a war.
So the Emperor turns his back to Choshu and says " I don't like foreigners but I never
told you to go to war with them. They are to me the same as cats and dogs."
The Choshu Joi radicals and kuge are then kicked out of Kyoto, and the milder Joi
faction of Satsuma takes Choshu's place in the circle of influence around the Emperor.
It's all a lot of poilitical intrigue and betrayal, but very interesting.
Private discussion about episode 18 between Izumisano and Luna14: (unedited)
Private Message 2: Izumisano's answer to Luna's question of ep. 18
1. Yodo
Even though his son is now daimyo (= Lord of Tosa), he is quite useless.
So Yodo still makes the decisions and the son becomes a puppet figure.
Practically, the ministers report to Yodo and ask for his approval instead
of the son. What Yodo says, everyone follows while the son basically enjoys
himself not needing to work. That's why they call Yodo the de facto Lord of
Tosa even though he is no longer daimyo. Also they call him the Great Lord (not ex-Lord),
meaning he's even higher than the Lord of Tosa.
It's interesting to see the same thing happen in Shimazu.
The father (who was never ever daimyo) makes all the decisions while the son takes on
the name. (Yodo met with him and the other daimyos in Kyoto in ep18.)
That's why Yodo and this guy were the ones who accompanied the Shogun on
his pilgrimage to Kyoto instead of their sons. They usually stay close to the Shogun
to be in the power game, so they can talk to the Shogun and influence him.
It seems Yodo was very well known as one of the most brilliant leaders and daimyos in
his time. So when he was put under house arrest in the Ansei purge, the people in
Tosa were furious. (Ep 10: "because of his criticism of Il Naisuke's policies, Yodo was
put on probation and had to hand over his duties to Yoshida Toyo." Il Naosuke was
the Tairo and Chief Senior Councillor of the Bakufu Elders, who took over after
Abe Masahiro retired.)
When Yodo was put on probation and house arrest, he was stripped of his daimyo
title. Theoretically, he should have passed the daimyo position to his son, but he
prefers to put Toyo as his deputy. That's because his son was too young and not
a strong leader. At the same time, Yodo himself is not allowed to see anyone
(except his household) during his house arrest, so he cannot do anything to help.
When Ii Naosuke was assassinated and Yodo released, he could not become
daimyo again. That's when he started ruling "behind-the-scene" through Toyo.
So Toyo's assissination messed up with Yodo's plans and took the power away
from Yodo, since Takechi started manipulating Yodo's son. Takechi didn't know this.
2. Takechi's plans
Takechi collapsed in ep18, because he had so strongly believed that everything he did
in promoting Joi, was for Yodo. He had assumed from Yodo's house arrest, that since
Ii Naosuke was pro-kaikoku, then Yodo must be pro-Joi. As since Yodo was opposing
the bakufu, then he Takechi will help Yodo fight the Bakufu.
So he set up the Tosa Kinnoto to take power away from the Bakufu. (In fact in ep13,
Toyo had already reminded him that Yodo would not turn against the Tokugawa,
but Takechi would not listen.....) Since he believes Yodo is such a brilliant leader, he
thinks Yodo should lead the country. Takechi, one-sidely thinks if he can promote Joi
in Tosa and in Japan, then Yodo as the Great Lord of Tosa, will rise to take power
and become the leader of Japan, after the Tokugawa are oppressed via Joi.
(He talked about his plans to Yodo in ep 18.)
You see, Takechi is not like Ryoma who thinks beyond the Han. Takechi has always
been "a loyal subject of the Han", perhaps the Han is even more important to him than
Joi. It seems he's using Joi as a means to grabbing more power for Yodo. But this is
just all his own thinking. He's really doing it for the Han and for Yodo, but as Yataro
said in ep13, Takechi's basic assumption was wrong.
In fact, Yodo (like many others) criticised Ii Naosuke for submitting to Perry and
the other countries too easily without any plans of protecting themselves. Yodo was
neither Joi nor Kaikoku. From his conversation with Katsu Kaishu where he said
"Japan cannot revert to his old ways anymore", you can say he was like Katsu,
he's open-minded and he thinks Japan should protect itself by becoming strong
through any means (including using western tech.) This was Yoshida Toyo's stance too.
Yodo's outburst towards the end of ep18 clarified to Takechi that Yodo
(and therefore Tosa) is pro-bakufu. Takechi finally realizes it and that his
strong belief in the past was all wrong. I don't think he'll let his followers
know Yodo's real stance because he's afraid to admit that he's been
misleading them.
Kyoto (and Edo) are the centres of influence since the Emperor and Shogun are
there. Once Yodo leaves, it means he's not interested in grabbing power, so
Takechi's plans are all ruined. He's done all that for nothing.
3. Shujiro
Since Yodo (Tosa) is pro-Bakufu, this explains the reason they used to arrest Shujiro
in ep19 (conspiring against the bakufu and against Tosa). When Shujiro went to pledge
his allegiance to the Sanjo and the kuge (or rather he thinks to the Emperor) to "reform"
or change Tosa, that put him as a traitor against his han.
Shujiro thinks he was working for Yodo, and the kuge idea must have been planted
by Yodo (or his man Morishita) and everything else that Shujiro must have done after
that. Morishita is following Yodo's instructions. They're manipulating Shujiro into
treason, so they could arrest him. Otherwise the Tosa gomawari would not be able
to know (and prove) Shujiro did anything wrong when they come for him in ep19.
(While they can't prove anything against Takechi who's obviously a much greater conspirator here.)
And of course, Shujiro doesn't question anything from Yodo at all. (Why would Yodo
need the kuge when he is already the most powerful man in Tosa? Shujiro should
have thought of that.) Perhaps everyone in the Kinnoto were led astray by
Takechi's assumptions that Yodo is anti-bakufu and pro-Emperor.
So by arresting Shujiro, they want to make him talk. Yodo's main target is simply
Takechi. But Yodo underestimates Shujiro and given the chance when the Emperor
turns his back on the Joi radicals (from Choshu) later, he throws the kinnoto members
into jail on conspiiracy charges against the Bakufu (we guess), since they were all
working with Choshu. Yodo couldn't do anything against the Kinnoto as long as
Choshu were in favour with the Emperor, as that would seem like he's going openly
against the Emperor. But once the Emperor cuts his ties with Choshu, Yodo can
bring them in.
He then tortures them into talking about the murders. (He can't torture Takechi who
is a Joshi.) Other than the murders (Toyo's assassination & Izo's killings), there's
really nothing solid to pin on them. It's really sad when everyone else is being tortured
but they still don't understand why, and they still earnestly believe in Takechi and
what they're doing was for Yodo/Joi/the "greater good". Only Takechi alone knows
they were misled by him and his blind assumptions. I wonder how they finally get
Takechi to end it.
4. Date for Joi
Tokugawa have plans up their sleeve as you will see in ep19. As first we thought they
were forced to give out a date, just so they can go back to Edo. But it seems they
have already thought of what to do when they return to Edo. In short, they just called
each daimyo up by himself and tell them, "The Emperor wants this, we've agreed to
the date, but frankly, we think that's not practical. So it's your choice who you want to
side with...." Of course, the daimyos don't dare to go against the Bakufu and on the
joi date, no-one (except Choshu Han) does anything. Choshu fire on a foreign ship
(British, I think?) who fires back and destroys all of Choshu's shoreline.
The foreigners further retaliate against the Choshu Han in war. Of course, Choshu
were beaten to the ground and the Emperor realizes Japan cannot stand up at all in a war.
So the Emperor turns his back to Choshu and says " I don't like foreigners but I never
told you to go to war with them. They are to me the same as cats and dogs."
The Choshu Joi radicals and kuge are then kicked out of Kyoto, and the milder Joi
faction of Satsuma takes Choshu's place in the circle of influence around the Emperor.
It's all a lot of poilitical intrigue and betrayal, but very interesting.
Part 3
Private discussion about episode 18 between Izumisano and Luna14: (unedited)
Private Message 3: Luna's reply to Izumisano's explanation to
Luna's questions about ep. 18 and Luna's interpretations of Takechi.
After, reading your explanations I can say now that I agree with the members
of your forum. Yodo is not Joi nor Kaikoku. He only supports the Bakufu,
because for his own interest, but you're right... He thinks like Katsu, therefore he
is supporting the navy. In fact, all the other Hans are for some reason
supporting the Navy. I wonder if Choshu Han is also supporting the Navy?
Okay, thanks I understand now the relationship of Yodo and current Tosa Damiyo.
Since, Yodo was punished, I thought he was not blood related to current Damiyo.
I thought Yodo and his family were disgraced.
Yes, I think you're right. Takeshi is not afraid to go against the powerful,
like the Bakufu, the foreigners, Toyo or anyone who opposes him. The only explanation
that would explain Takechi's behavior towards Yodo, is if Takechi saw him as part of
his plans. Then, it would all make sense. Ryoma also attempt to explain to Toyo,
that despite Takechi's fault, he was loyal to his lord/Han. And so was the Tosa Kinnoto.
Now, I kind of have to disagree here.
Takeshi said he was loyal to the emperor, because the emperor was "against foreigners".
Therefore, he established the Tosa Kinnoto. So, he didn't care so much about
the Han. He only saw Yodo as part of his joi plans. But, he didn't care about
being loyal to him. Takeshi is only loyal to his ideals, wherever they will take him.
Therefore, Yodo knows he can never trust him. You see, Takeshi is in a way "like Ryoma".
The only difference is they have different ideals.
Okay, I also, understand now why the Bakufu agree to a date.
But, the only thing I don't fully understand is point 3 (Shujiro's/Tosa Kinnoto behavior).
But, I guess I have to wait until you finish translating for ep 19.
Because, your mentioned that episode a lot. And without it, I kind of
missing the big picture.
Private discussion about episode 18 between Izumisano and Luna14: (unedited)
Private Message 3: Luna's reply to Izumisano's explanation to
Luna's questions about ep. 18 and Luna's interpretations of Takechi.
After, reading your explanations I can say now that I agree with the members
of your forum. Yodo is not Joi nor Kaikoku. He only supports the Bakufu,
because for his own interest, but you're right... He thinks like Katsu, therefore he
is supporting the navy. In fact, all the other Hans are for some reason
supporting the Navy. I wonder if Choshu Han is also supporting the Navy?
Okay, thanks I understand now the relationship of Yodo and current Tosa Damiyo.
Since, Yodo was punished, I thought he was not blood related to current Damiyo.
I thought Yodo and his family were disgraced.
Yes, I think you're right. Takeshi is not afraid to go against the powerful,
like the Bakufu, the foreigners, Toyo or anyone who opposes him. The only explanation
that would explain Takechi's behavior towards Yodo, is if Takechi saw him as part of
his plans. Then, it would all make sense. Ryoma also attempt to explain to Toyo,
that despite Takechi's fault, he was loyal to his lord/Han. And so was the Tosa Kinnoto.
Now, I kind of have to disagree here.
Takeshi said he was loyal to the emperor, because the emperor was "against foreigners".
Therefore, he established the Tosa Kinnoto. So, he didn't care so much about
the Han. He only saw Yodo as part of his joi plans. But, he didn't care about
being loyal to him. Takeshi is only loyal to his ideals, wherever they will take him.
Therefore, Yodo knows he can never trust him. You see, Takeshi is in a way "like Ryoma".
The only difference is they have different ideals.
Okay, I also, understand now why the Bakufu agree to a date.
But, the only thing I don't fully understand is point 3 (Shujiro's/Tosa Kinnoto behavior).
But, I guess I have to wait until you finish translating for ep 19.
Because, your mentioned that episode a lot. And without it, I kind of
missing the big picture.
Part 4
Private discussion about episode 18 between Izumisano and Luna14: (unedited)
Private Message 4: Izumisano's reply to Luna's interpretations of Takechi.
I like your view that Takechi was working only for himself. In fact, upto the end
before he was arrested, he still insisted they've done nothing wrong. This is after
he knows Yodo is pro-bakufu. Even when Izo was captured and so horribly tortured,
Takechi still doesn't stand up and admit that he himself was responsible for Toyo's
death! He waits until ep28. In the NHK preview notes, Ryoma goes back to Tosa and
tells Goto that Ryoma is Toyo's murderer, just to save Takechi!! Only then did Takechi
admit it. In the meantime, he lets Izo and all the others get tortured. I really hate
him for that, even though he's such a good husband to Tomi.
Private discussion about episode 18 between Izumisano and Luna14: (unedited)
Private Message 4: Izumisano's reply to Luna's interpretations of Takechi.
I like your view that Takechi was working only for himself. In fact, upto the end
before he was arrested, he still insisted they've done nothing wrong. This is after
he knows Yodo is pro-bakufu. Even when Izo was captured and so horribly tortured,
Takechi still doesn't stand up and admit that he himself was responsible for Toyo's
death! He waits until ep28. In the NHK preview notes, Ryoma goes back to Tosa and
tells Goto that Ryoma is Toyo's murderer, just to save Takechi!! Only then did Takechi
admit it. In the meantime, he lets Izo and all the others get tortured. I really hate
him for that, even though he's such a good husband to Tomi.
Part 5
Private discussion about episode 18 between Izumisano and Luna14: (unedited)
Private Message 5: Another interesting scene in ep. 18, according to Luna.
P.S.2 Another scene that was also strange in ep. 18,
is when Yodo tells Takechi about Ryoma's dappan
and that he is forgiven him. In ep. 17, Yodo said he
cannot forgive Ryoma's dappan. And then he is forgiven him.
And why tell Takechi? I think he told Takechi that, because
he wanted to send the message that he can forgive Ryoma's
disloyalty because Ryoma is not a tread to him. But, he
cannot forgive Takechi. Because, he is dangerous.
Private discussion about episode 18 between Izumisano and Luna14: (unedited)
Private Message 5: Another interesting scene in ep. 18, according to Luna.
P.S.2 Another scene that was also strange in ep. 18,
is when Yodo tells Takechi about Ryoma's dappan
and that he is forgiven him. In ep. 17, Yodo said he
cannot forgive Ryoma's dappan. And then he is forgiven him.
And why tell Takechi? I think he told Takechi that, because
he wanted to send the message that he can forgive Ryoma's
disloyalty because Ryoma is not a tread to him. But, he
cannot forgive Takechi. Because, he is dangerous.
Part 6
Private discussion about episode 18 between Izumisano and Luna14: (unedited)
Private Message 6: Izumizano answer to "another interesting scene
in ep. 18, according to Luna".
Re: Takechi & Yodo, I think so too. In a way, I think Yodo is very good at manipulating people against each other. So he probably using Ryoma's pardon as a tool against Takechi to show how much he supports the Bakufu's navy and maybe to create jealously in Takechi since Ryoma's in a very good position now (he's with Katsu and got to see Yodo even before Takechi.)
Private discussion about episode 18 between Izumisano and Luna14: (unedited)
Private Message 6: Izumizano answer to "another interesting scene
in ep. 18, according to Luna".
Re: Takechi & Yodo, I think so too. In a way, I think Yodo is very good at manipulating people against each other. So he probably using Ryoma's pardon as a tool against Takechi to show how much he supports the Bakufu's navy and maybe to create jealously in Takechi since Ryoma's in a very good position now (he's with Katsu and got to see Yodo even before Takechi.)
Wow, I didn't realise Luna and I had talked so much about it. 
There's been a lot of discussion about Ryomaden in other forums, e.g. the japanese forum 2channel (Ryomaden thread) had 3,000+ new posts the night after ep2 alone. What I'd written (as quoted by Luna) was just a collection of personal opinions from different people and myself, after viewing this drama. And they're not meant to reflect the real historical facts in any way. There are many many other views and there's no wrong or right way. What I felt is so great about this drama, is that it doesn't spoonfeed us and allows viewers to think and come up with their own interpretations. It's a lot of fun talking about it too.
Sorry about the spoilers in ep19 and after. I'll try my best to complete the translations asap.
.
There's been a lot of discussion about Ryomaden in other forums, e.g. the japanese forum 2channel (Ryomaden thread) had 3,000+ new posts the night after ep2 alone. What I'd written (as quoted by Luna) was just a collection of personal opinions from different people and myself, after viewing this drama. And they're not meant to reflect the real historical facts in any way. There are many many other views and there's no wrong or right way. What I felt is so great about this drama, is that it doesn't spoonfeed us and allows viewers to think and come up with their own interpretations. It's a lot of fun talking about it too.
Sorry about the spoilers in ep19 and after. I'll try my best to complete the translations asap.
.
Thanks for the interesting comments on ep. 18.
I must say that I also was a little puzzled by the developments in this ep. I wonder if the background of the rise and fall of Takechi and the many schemes of the ones in power then, are common knowledge in Japan now. So much is implied, that you would think so. At the same time the storytelling in this episode is kept very simple, probably not to confuse any further. I was a bit shocked by the spoilers. I would recommend using the spoiler tags if developments in future episodes are being discussed.
Still, I was very happy to read your discussion as it really gave me more insight into the recent developments in Ryoma Den!
I must say that I also was a little puzzled by the developments in this ep. I wonder if the background of the rise and fall of Takechi and the many schemes of the ones in power then, are common knowledge in Japan now. So much is implied, that you would think so. At the same time the storytelling in this episode is kept very simple, probably not to confuse any further. I was a bit shocked by the spoilers. I would recommend using the spoiler tags if developments in future episodes are being discussed.
Still, I was very happy to read your discussion as it really gave me more insight into the recent developments in Ryoma Den!
You might be right and it seems like the background of the rise and fall of Takechi is common knowledge in Japan or it could be quite the contrary.
And is a controversy subject even today. I was also surprised that the storytelling of episode 18 was very simple. But, after reading your comments,
I'm kind of wondering now if was made so to avoid criticism/controversy.
The script seems to imply only that what led to Takechi's fall was a combination of
a)Political scheming (Toyo, Kuge, Han), b)Shujiro's betrayal and c)the Tosa Kinnoto dismantle.
I'm well aware that the serie is called Ryoma Den and not Takechi Den.
But the fact that such an important turn of events (that would eventually affect Ryoma's life),
for some reason it was not fully explained leaving a lot to the imagination,
seems planned. The script for ep 18 was a bit rushed and summarized.
In my opinion, episode 18, should have been split in two or further explained.
I'm desperately, waiting for ep.19 translations to be completed, hopefully that would help
feel in some of the blanks.
And is a controversy subject even today. I was also surprised that the storytelling of episode 18 was very simple. But, after reading your comments,
I'm kind of wondering now if was made so to avoid criticism/controversy.
The script seems to imply only that what led to Takechi's fall was a combination of
a)Political scheming (Toyo, Kuge, Han), b)Shujiro's betrayal and c)the Tosa Kinnoto dismantle.
I'm well aware that the serie is called Ryoma Den and not Takechi Den.
But the fact that such an important turn of events (that would eventually affect Ryoma's life),
for some reason it was not fully explained leaving a lot to the imagination,
seems planned. The script for ep 18 was a bit rushed and summarized.
In my opinion, episode 18, should have been split in two or further explained.
I'm desperately, waiting for ep.19 translations to be completed, hopefully that would help
feel in some of the blanks.
Does anyone knows what Yodo is eating in Ep. 20 scene at 06:04?
Looks like some kind of colorless gelatine.
I would like to include the name of it in sub file, if possible.
So that we can all learn about japanese culture,
If anyone knows the answer, post it at Ryomaden discussion thread or sub thread.
You can also send me a PM.
Thanks in advance.
Looks like some kind of colorless gelatine.
I would like to include the name of it in sub file, if possible.
So that we can all learn about japanese culture,
If anyone knows the answer, post it at Ryomaden discussion thread or sub thread.
You can also send me a PM.
Thanks in advance.
Thanks for your help!chokubi wrote:I'm not 100% sure but it looks like kuzukiri (葛切り), which is made from arrowroot flour.Luna14 wrote:Does anyone knows what Yodo is eating in Ep. 20 scene at 06:04?
Looks like some kind of colorless gelatine.
I think you're right.
I found this cool website with all kind of kuzukiri photos.
http://www.flickriver.com/search/kuzukiri/
I am enjoying this drama a lot and watching it on TV on the NHK channel. It is repeated a few times over a weekend and I get one with English subs.
Apart from this particular story of Ryoma, I am struck by the bloodthirsty ways of some of the samurai clans. I know there is a hierarchy in the various social levels. At this time when things are falling apart in the shogunate it seems that a lot of backstabbing and plots to have people assassinated or commit seppuku are part and parcel of daily life.
It reminds me of the dramas about the mafia. Wars between various families for turf and moneymaking. Life is cheap and power is everything.
I have read so much about Ryoma and it seems such a waste for him to die so young. He would have been such a good influence in Japan as the country was really opening up to the wider world.
Splendid cast in this version.
Peggy
Apart from this particular story of Ryoma, I am struck by the bloodthirsty ways of some of the samurai clans. I know there is a hierarchy in the various social levels. At this time when things are falling apart in the shogunate it seems that a lot of backstabbing and plots to have people assassinated or commit seppuku are part and parcel of daily life.
It reminds me of the dramas about the mafia. Wars between various families for turf and moneymaking. Life is cheap and power is everything.
I have read so much about Ryoma and it seems such a waste for him to die so young. He would have been such a good influence in Japan as the country was really opening up to the wider world.
Splendid cast in this version.
Peggy
Just watched ep. 33 and it's IMO one of the most exciting (if not the most) episodes of the series. Just a word of warning - don't watch the preview to the next ep. as the content is pretty much fully spoiled.
Since the start of season 3, Fukuyama Masaharu's acting has markedly improved and things should get really interesting from here. Just curious why the people in Kyoto and Osaka speak in perfect Tokyo dialect and not in Kansai ban (vs the others who speak in their native dialect). Props to the actor who plays Thomas Glover whose acting is not only more than acceptable but also speaks very good Japanese as well (in fact I have an easier time picking up what he said).
BTW the episode has the lowest rating of the series because (I suspect) it coincided with the start of the Japanese week-long holiday (as evidenced by the rebound this sunday). There's another 'record' rating which projects how many people have recorded the show to be watched later and you really have to combine the 2 to get a true picture, and Ryouma Den has been consistently on top in the 'record' rating since the beginning.
Since the start of season 3, Fukuyama Masaharu's acting has markedly improved and things should get really interesting from here. Just curious why the people in Kyoto and Osaka speak in perfect Tokyo dialect and not in Kansai ban (vs the others who speak in their native dialect). Props to the actor who plays Thomas Glover whose acting is not only more than acceptable but also speaks very good Japanese as well (in fact I have an easier time picking up what he said).
BTW the episode has the lowest rating of the series because (I suspect) it coincided with the start of the Japanese week-long holiday (as evidenced by the rebound this sunday). There's another 'record' rating which projects how many people have recorded the show to be watched later and you really have to combine the 2 to get a true picture, and Ryouma Den has been consistently on top in the 'record' rating since the beginning.
Agree 100%. In fact, as the series progresses, you could see Fukuyama getting better and better. To be honest, he was always more involved as a musician than in acting, so I'm glad to see his evolvement as an actor in here. I was very impressed with Tim Wellard (Thomas Glover) too, especially in last week's episode. Good choice NHK!shinqtaro wrote:Since the start of season 3, Fukuyama Masaharu's acting has markedly improved and things should get really interesting from here. Props to the actor who plays Thomas Glover whose acting is not only more than acceptable but also speaks very good Japanese as well (in fact I have an easier time picking up what he said).
Thanks, I didn't know that! I also read that HDTV broadcasts are not included in the ratings. Is that true? Ryomaden is shown on HDTV channel BShi 2 hours before it airs on the main channel. With more and more poeple switching over to HDTV, I wonder how big that impact could be.shinqtaro wrote:BTW the episode has the lowest rating of the series because (I suspect) it coincided with the start of the Japanese week-long holiday (as evidenced by the rebound this sunday). There's another 'record' rating which projects how many people have recorded the show to be watched later and you really have to combine the 2 to get a true picture, and Ryouma Den has been consistently on top in the 'record' rating since the beginning.
.
Thanks for the video!
An interesting article on the Ryomaden screenwriter Fukada Yasushi:
http://mainichi.jp/area/yamaguchi/hyoro ... 6000c.html
(Thanks to River of MashaPlus [dot] Info Forums for the link and initial translations.)
Mainichi Daily News, Yamaguchi Prefecture, Shūnan City (2010.09.20) - Branch Editor Commentary: Fukuda Yasushi-san
The Yamguchi Ken Tokuyama High School celebrated its 130th anniversary on Sept 10th with a special guest speaker - old-boy and screenwriter Fukuda Yasushi ( 48 ). He gave a 90-minute talk which included amusing anedotes and behind-the-scene stories of his dramas.
It seems he was first approached by NHK to write the story for their morning drama Gegege no Nyoubo. But somehow, someone in the NHK decided he should take up the script for the next taiga instead.
Then they had to decide on the main character. They wanted someone not featured before. The Sengoku period was excluded since it was just covered (2006 & 2007) and as was the Bakumatsu (Meiji) because of the 3-year "Saka no ue no kumo". Fukuda-san was given a list and found he only knew 2 names - Himiko (3rd century) and Taira no Kiyomori (which will be the figure for 2012 taiga). He couldn't get a distinct image of Kiyomori after some research and when he discussed it with NHK, they said "Then do Sakamoto Ryoma." "But I thought we weren't doing the Bakumatsu..." Needless to say, he was a bit pxssed off.
As for the lead, it was Fukuda-san who recommended Fukuyama Masaharu. Fukuyama-san needed to research into Ryoma and think very carefully about the role, so he hadn't accepted it. This went on for 7 months. Before Fukuyama-san agreed, they couldn't approach other actors. In the end, they just decided to say "we don't have a lead yet" as they waited. As for the rumour about the role going to Fukuyama after Kimura Takuya turned it down, it was completely untrue.
(Before moving on to drama) Fukuda had spent 10 years in theater in Tokyo, making a living through odd jobs and part-time. "This experience has enabled me to write for drama. I can only write about what I feel and experience." I guess it's a bit like a reporter being able to write about what he has seen, heard and felt, and nothing more. He will be interviewed again in 'Minutes Youth' Magazine.
(By Kubota in Shūnan City)
An interesting article on the Ryomaden screenwriter Fukada Yasushi:
http://mainichi.jp/area/yamaguchi/hyoro ... 6000c.html
(Thanks to River of MashaPlus [dot] Info Forums for the link and initial translations.)
Mainichi Daily News, Yamaguchi Prefecture, Shūnan City (2010.09.20) - Branch Editor Commentary: Fukuda Yasushi-san
The Yamguchi Ken Tokuyama High School celebrated its 130th anniversary on Sept 10th with a special guest speaker - old-boy and screenwriter Fukuda Yasushi ( 48 ). He gave a 90-minute talk which included amusing anedotes and behind-the-scene stories of his dramas.
It seems he was first approached by NHK to write the story for their morning drama Gegege no Nyoubo. But somehow, someone in the NHK decided he should take up the script for the next taiga instead.
Then they had to decide on the main character. They wanted someone not featured before. The Sengoku period was excluded since it was just covered (2006 & 2007) and as was the Bakumatsu (Meiji) because of the 3-year "Saka no ue no kumo". Fukuda-san was given a list and found he only knew 2 names - Himiko (3rd century) and Taira no Kiyomori (which will be the figure for 2012 taiga). He couldn't get a distinct image of Kiyomori after some research and when he discussed it with NHK, they said "Then do Sakamoto Ryoma." "But I thought we weren't doing the Bakumatsu..." Needless to say, he was a bit pxssed off.
As for the lead, it was Fukuda-san who recommended Fukuyama Masaharu. Fukuyama-san needed to research into Ryoma and think very carefully about the role, so he hadn't accepted it. This went on for 7 months. Before Fukuyama-san agreed, they couldn't approach other actors. In the end, they just decided to say "we don't have a lead yet" as they waited. As for the rumour about the role going to Fukuyama after Kimura Takuya turned it down, it was completely untrue.
(Before moving on to drama) Fukuda had spent 10 years in theater in Tokyo, making a living through odd jobs and part-time. "This experience has enabled me to write for drama. I can only write about what I feel and experience." I guess it's a bit like a reporter being able to write about what he has seen, heard and felt, and nothing more. He will be interviewed again in 'Minutes Youth' Magazine.
(By Kubota in Shūnan City)
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