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[Discussion] GOU ~Himetachi no Sengoku~

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yanie
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Post by yanie » Feb 8th, '11, 00:06

All political matters aside, if I were to compare the "details that led Akechi to gradually disagree then hate Nobunaga" in GOU and Komyo, then I have to say "Komyo" did it much better.

It was easier to comprehend Akechi's actions because Tachi Hiroshi's Nobunaga seem like he's not in the right mind anymore (right before the Honnoji incident). Ever since he declared himself as god, he just become crazy and uncontrollable, it's easy to see that he's just not the leader Akechi used to admire, anymore. Not to mention, Nobunaga started to abuse his wife, No-hime, badly. (another reason for Akechi, because No-hime is his cousin, and they used to have a love relationship in the past, in this "Komyo" version).

While, GOU made it like Akechi Mitsuhide is the bad guy. And btw, what's with Akechi's over-trembling hand? :scratch: It kinda bothered me. But nevertheless I like Ichimura Masachika as an actor, and I think he did a good job as (Tabuchi Kumiko's version of)Akechi Mitsuhide :-)

Just my 2 cents :-)

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 8th, '11, 03:34

yanie wrote:While, GOU made it like Akechi Mitsuhide is the bad guy. And btw, what's with Akechi's over-trembling hand? :scratch: It kinda bothered me. But nevertheless I like Ichimura Masachika as an actor, and I think he did a good job as (Tabuchi Kumiko's version of)Akechi Mitsuhide :-)
I don't think Mitsuhide is the bad guy at all: Nobunaga abused the crap out of him... It shouldn't be so surprising for Mitsuhide to turn on Nobunaga.

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Post by toranosuke » Feb 8th, '11, 15:52

I apologize if you all have discussed this already, but does anyone think it weird that Juri-chan is already portraying Gou in these early episodes when she's only 7-9 years old?

If she was born in 1573, then she would have been about nine when Nobunaga was killed. I guess if they had a younger actress, it might not seem so out of place, but as it is, I can't decide whether she's especially precocious for seven, or especially childish for seventeen, or what.

It just seems terribly out of place. I'd be surprised that she'd be traveling to Azuchi or wherever alone (albeit with an entourage) at an older age, never mind at the age of seven or eight. To go all the way to Azuchi, and ask Nobunaga such serious and pointed questions... again, if the actress were younger, maybe it would look/feel alright - it would feel more like she's young enough that she can get away with it, that she's just being curious and precocious. But as is, with 24 year old Ueno Juri playing the 8 year old Gou, it comes across as confusing and strange. Is she 8? Or 18?

Or is it just me, and no one else really has an issue with this? Is this typical in Taiga dramas (this is my first one)?

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Post by 7th-key » Feb 8th, '11, 16:46

^ Could be worse: in kabuki theatre female roles are played by men. XD
But it was indeed discussed some pages back, in case you'd like to read that. :)

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Post by hhnd » Feb 8th, '11, 18:50

@toranosuke: It depends on how you see it. For me, it's hard to imagine how a young actress (anywhere from 7-15 years old) can portray Gou, an extraordinary girl, for one episode, let alone 10 eps. You just have to keep in mind the character's real age as you watch and forget the fact that Juri is, well, 24 years old :D. Also, it will be interesting to see how Juri manages to portray an adult Gou different from Gou as a child, and that's challenging for an actor/actress, which is why it'll be even more fun to watch. :)

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 8th, '11, 18:56

toranosuke wrote:I apologize if you all have discussed this already, but does anyone think it weird that Juri-chan is already portraying Gou in these early episodes when she's only 7-9 years old?

If she was born in 1573, then she would have been about nine when Nobunaga was killed. I guess if they had a younger actress, it might not seem so out of place, but as it is, I can't decide whether she's especially precocious for seven, or especially childish for seventeen, or what.

It just seems terribly out of place. I'd be surprised that she'd be traveling to Azuchi or wherever alone (albeit with an entourage) at an older age, never mind at the age of seven or eight. To go all the way to Azuchi, and ask Nobunaga such serious and pointed questions... again, if the actress were younger, maybe it would look/feel alright - it would feel more like she's young enough that she can get away with it, that she's just being curious and precocious. But as is, with 24 year old Ueno Juri playing the 8 year old Gou, it comes across as confusing and strange. Is she 8? Or 18?

Or is it just me, and no one else really has an issue with this? Is this typical in Taiga dramas (this is my first one)?
It was discussed to death early on and some people even dropped the Taiga because of it... Their loss, IMO.

Either you accept the age differential and enjoy the Taiga (which has been very very good, BTW) or you don't and move on.

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 8th, '11, 18:57

hhnd wrote:Also, it will be interesting to see how Juri manages to portray an adult Gou different from Gou as a child, and that's challenging for an actor/actress, which is why it'll be even more fun to watch. :)
She'll be able to pull it off with ease, I'm sure. :thumright:

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Post by Peggy » Feb 8th, '11, 19:08

It is strange to think about a 24 year old actress playing a nine year old princess. If you allow yourself to think of it too much it will totally spoil the whole taiga.
For myself, I have accepted the ability of the actress to play any age, and since this is a fictional account of history, it is not difficult to accept that ALL of the roles are being played by modern day actors and they are all giving us a wonderful story.
The history is almost as unbelievable. If you read in a true factual story in a book those were the warring states and the activities were hard to believe. Therefore seeing the actors in GOU is not hard for me at all. It is a wonderful drama and we know we are seeing real historical people being portrayed.
It gets my thoughts back in time, and I accept all the actors playing their roles whatever the age may be.

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 8th, '11, 20:01

^ Very well said, Peggy. :thumright:

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Post by toranosuke » Feb 8th, '11, 21:09

Sorry for reviving something already discussed. Thanks for humoring me.

I'm definitely going to keep watching the show; I started watching it largely for Juri, and have come to really enjoy it. Can't wait for the next episode!

PS @7th-key - I'm actually a huge kabuki fan, and would have been perfectly happy to see professional onnagata in these roles. Speaking of which, I adore Seto Koji, but someone like kabuki actor Nakamura Ichitaro could have been fantastic in that role as well.

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Post by P@permoon » Feb 9th, '11, 04:40

How ever you want to bend or twist it, there is just no excuse for Mitshuhide´s action to attack intentionally a defenseless group of barely 100 men, with an army of over 10 000 soldiers. That´s just black treachery and absolutly against the morals of the Samurai Code. If he was unhappy and had have the guts, he should have done, what was to do when you wanted to protest against your Lord: Commit Seppuku.

In Gou the Honnoji-incident is clearly told out of Nobunaga´s perspective and so he remains unaware of the grudges that Mitsuhide build up over years. Ranmaru seems the only one having a bad presentiment. Yes, Nobunaga´s behaviour towards his vassals was not nice, but that´s how he was with everybody who ticked him off, not only Mitsuhide, but also his sons or Hideyoshi. It was more like a daily routine, generals and pages had to fear. He was neither devilish nor crazy, but very short-tempered and arrogant. Also, he liked to test his retainers.

The attempted explanations, Taiga Writers came up with, are very fanciful and most of the time far off history. What´s with the Nohime, Nobunaga and Mitsuhide "love triangle" in "Komyo ga Tsuji"? Nohime and Mitsuhide aren´t related in any ways and she vanished into obscurity shortly after her marriage with Nobunaga and was never seen on his side again. Went Nobunaga crazy at any point? I would doubt that, since his plans for further invasions showed, that he was as clear in his head as ever. Also, for Gou, I think it´s interesting to note that she never actually met her Uncle and that her father was the one, who broke the alliance with the Oda Clan, while Oichi warned her brother before the planned attack. And, Nobunaga as Gou´s first love? I can´t find anything that implies this in the article that Yanie linked and it seems to "jumping-the-shark", doesn´t it?

Regarding that rumor, was Nobunaga pedophile? Well, that´s a complex topic, but interesting. Searching for informations about "shudo relationships" is the easiest way to find plenty of informations. It was a common relationship, and approved as courtly love, between a young Samurai in training (varlet/squire) and his teacher, an older Samurai (usually the upper class lords). Since boys were young when they started their Training, it was indeed a pederasty based bound, that ended with the boys coming-of-age ceremony at the end of their training. Takeda Shingen, Uesugi Kenshin, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Tokugawa Hidetada (Gou´s later husband), just to name a few, where all involved in Shudo acts. But Oda Nobunaga and Mori Ranmaru are the most famous couple in Japanese History. Ranmaru, even though he was already in the position of a General at around the age of 15, stayed faithfully at Nobunaga´s side as his varlet (guardian and secretary) till their deaths.

As for Episode 5 ...
This is the best Honnoji Version ever! In recent series, it was never really touching, but this time, it really got the dramatic effect down, and blood!

I think that most of the actors are matching their parts, like Masachika Ichimura as Mitsuhide. But I really have to bow before Toyokawa Etsushi as Nobunaga and Seto Koji as Ranmaru!
These two are the best and just perfect in their parts. From looks to characteristics, they are fitting the image I got from reading history books so much, that it felt like meeting Nobunaga and Ranmaru for real!
:wub:

Outstanding acting there!
Ranmaru left me breathless and in tears, so amazing! :cry:

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Post by yanie » Feb 9th, '11, 06:26

P@permoon wrote:How ever you want to bend or twist it, there is just no excuse for Mitshuhide´s action to attack intentionally a defenseless group of barely 100 men, with an army of over 10 000 soldiers. That´s just black treachery and absolutly against the morals of the Samurai Code. If he was unhappy and had have the guts, he should have done, what was to do when you wanted to protest against your Lord: Commit Seppuku.
Very well put, it's hard to disagree with you on this :-) I'd assume that neither Nobunaga nor Mitsuhide are bad guy or good guy. None of the rulers that time, actually, even Ieyasu and Hideyoshi, are right or wrong, good guy or bad guy.

Although, I'd like to believe that Tokugawa Hidetada was the kindest ruler(shogun) ever (a good guy), based on the historical facts and historians opinions I've read :wub:

P@permoon wrote:The attempted explanations, Taiga Writers came up with, are very fanciful and most of the time far off history. What´s with the Nohime, Nobunaga and Mitsuhide "love triangle" in "Komyo ga Tsuji"? Nohime and Mitsuhide aren´t related in any ways and she vanished into obscurity shortly after her marriage with Nobunaga and was never seen on his side again.
Please read this: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/濃姫

Very little historical facts found on No-hime. Her mother's father's surname is Akechi, so there's A THEORY that No-hime is Mitsuhide's cousin. But since Mitsuhide's first half of life (before he met Nobunaga) is unclear, itself, it cannot be confirmed.
No-hime's life after her marriage with Nobunaga was also separated into a few theories. Some said, she died young. Some said, they had a divorce. Some also said, that she also fought with a sword in Honnoji Temple and died there. It's one of the historical THEORY by historians.

Basically, we can't really say what's right or wrong, what's faithful and what's not, regarding a historical adaptation. It's hard to prove how true the written history is, unless we meet those historical figures ourselves, which is impossible.

My preference is purely preference. I'm not saying that "Komyo ga Tsuji" is more historically accurate (since I don't know much on the history details), but I simply just like how that adaptation tells the details about Mitsuhide, better, because it makes me understand his actions^^

P@permoon wrote:Also, for Gou, I think it´s interesting to note that she never actually met her Uncle

So, there's a historical fact that states Gou, the real person, have never actually met Nobunaga? Aww... so, this part in GOU is just pure fiction XD (hehe, I can guess already, but kinda bumped me to get a confirmation :P)
P@permoon wrote:And, Nobunaga as Gou´s first love? I can´t find anything that implies this in the article that Yanie linked and it seems to "jumping-the-shark", doesn´t it?
Are? You didn't read this part?

また、江の恋の相手ということで、初恋の相手・織田信長(豊川悦司)のイメージと重なるよう、黒っぽい着物姿などで演じる予定となっている。

http://zasshi.news.yahoo.co.jp/article? ... the_tv-ent

And btw, the article meant he's her first love in THIS adaptation^^


Regarding Ep4, Nobunaga-Ichi's scene intrigued me very much.
Nobunaga told Ichi, he want to adopt the sisters, and he's planning to marry off Chacha with the Prince, the Emperor's successor. I wonder if this is purely made up by the scriptwriter? Or did it exist as one of the historical theory/fact, that Nobunaga once planned this?? If it's purely written by the writer, I have to say it's a brilliant idea. I like it that the sisters might have a chance to have totally different lives if only it's Nobunaga who adopt them, and not Hideyoshi. :roll

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 10th, '11, 06:43


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Post by Liubeibei » Feb 10th, '11, 07:01

I've chosen Gou's Honnoji to be the best out of the ones I've watched. What an episode.

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Post by Peggy » Feb 10th, '11, 21:50

I personally have admired Nobunaga for so long, and I think it was a dastardly unSamurai-like act for Mitsuhide to ambush them at the temple.A cowardly plot.
I also cannot believe any words that Nobunaga went crazy. He was too intelligent from his early youth. He could read people and chose his retainers for their character and future usefulness in his plans. Mitsuhide was a mistake in my opinion and would never have been loyal even if he had not acted on his rage at the temple.Must remember that all these men were fiercely trained from young ages in fighting and honorouble rules. Seppuku was the answer in so many instances but Mitsuhide was not with honour in this instance. That honour lay with Nobunaga and Ranmaru. I truly want to believe that Ranmaru was such a beautiful young samurai with great ideals for his life with his Lord. He must have been the only one there who could give the final blow and that must have been a most cruel honour before he also ended his own life.
The fact that these things really happend to real people is incredible I think.

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 10th, '11, 23:18

Peggy wrote:I personally have admired Nobunaga for so long, and I think it was a dastardly unSamurai-like act for Mitsuhide to ambush them at the temple.A cowardly plot.
Well, if you take what is shown on face value in the Taiga so far, Nobunaga drove him to it: abusing Mitsuhide privately and publicly... Who wouldn't turn on their master with such continual abuse? :sweat:

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Post by yanie » Feb 11th, '11, 00:08

In case anyone would like to see other versions of the "Honnoji no Hen" :-)

Tokugawa Ieyasu (NHK 1983)
Oda Nobunaga: Yakusho Koji
Akechi Mitsuhide: Terada Minori



Nobunaga KING OF ZIPANGU (NHK 1993)
Oda Nobunaga: Ogata Naoto
Akechi Mitsuhide: Michael Tomioka
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/CTv0_xG8lEo/

Hideyoshi (NHK 1996)
Oda Nobunaga: Watari Tetsuya
Akechi Mitsuhide: Murakami Hiroaki
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/TRu8McbGvUI/

Toshiie to Matsu (NHK 2002)
Oda Nobunaga: Sorimachi Takashi
Akechi Mitsuhide: Hagiwara Ken'ichi
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/uZ4ZJglPLZI/

Kunitori Monogatari (TV Tokyo 2005)
Oda Nobunaga: Ito Hideaki
Akechi Mitsuhide: Watabe Atsuro


Nobunaga no Kan (TV Asahi 2006)
Oda Nobunaga: Matsuoka Masahiro (TOKIO)
Akechi Mitsuhide: Kohinata Fumiyo
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/6XasK0ygPvE/

TAIKOUKI (TV Asahi 2006)
Oda Nobunaga: Murakami Hiroaki
Akechi Mitsuhide: Kazama Toru
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/hxU42kHoBpE/

Komyo ga Tsuji (NHK 2006)
Oda Nobunaga: Tachi Hiroshi
Akechi Mitsuhide: Bando Mitsugoro


Teki wa Honnoji ni Ari (TV Asahi 2007)
Oda Nobunaga: Tamaki Hiroshi
Akechi Mitsuhide: Nakamura Baijaku
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/ixiJe41SUY8/

Tenchijin (NHK 2009)
Oda Nobunaga: Mikawa Koji
Akechi Mitsuhide: Tsurumi Shingo
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/6e3vmmYTvKs/

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Post by Peggy » Feb 11th, '11, 01:29

Well I am not taking this taiga at face value. I am only downloading it to watch later. I have merely dipped into a few scenes and I must say that I like what I see and the casting sounds formidable.
I have read about Nobunaga over time and I still think he would have been a great leader for the whole of Japan despite his many harsh acts and heavy treatment of his vassals.He was somewhat of a visionary regarding the opening of Japan.

For my money Akechi was a traitor. Just my opinion.

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Post by lullabye » Feb 11th, '11, 06:42

I finally got to watch episode 5 with subs (thank you so much, Liubeibei). Ah, I wish we could have spent more time with Nobunaga and the Mori brothers. It was just too sad to have Honniji so early, though obviously unavoidable, given the story.

Seto Koji was great as Ranmaru; he has a gift for subtle facial expressions that speak even where there is no dialogue, and that made the farewell scene and Ranmaru's final stand emotionally wrenching. And I am so going to miss that magnificant bastard, Oda Nobunaga. It will be interesting to see, from now on, if Gou really does act as a female Nobunaga.

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Post by asian_grl » Feb 11th, '11, 07:01

yanie wrote:
bmwracer wrote:Romantic? :scratch:
It depends on how each audience see it.

But apparently, this article mentioned, that in this adaptation, Nobunaga is Gou's first love, indeed :mrgreen:
http://zasshi.news.yahoo.co.jp/article? ... the_tv-ent
I'm not the only crazy one then. Because omg that horseback scene.. I kept thinking how good they looked together and how they looked like they were going to kiss :crazy:

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Post by yanie » Feb 11th, '11, 07:18

asian_grl wrote:I'm not the only crazy one then. Because omg that horseback scene.. I kept thinking how good they looked together and how they looked like they were going to kiss :crazy:
I think they totally meant it that way :lol

There's nothing wrong about it, actually. Gou is a 9-years-old and that's the age where one would experience first love. Just like how some have their elementary school teacher as first loves :roll Afterall, there were historical theories that Ichi might not be Nobunaga's blood-related sister, as Ichi's birth facts still can't be confirmed. (now I understand, why some adaptations would make it like Ichi loves Nobunaga as a man, and not as a brother) So, Gou-Nobunaga might not be blood-related as well :P

Wondering about Nobunaga's feelings for Gou, in this adaptation, though.
Why would he saw Gou in his last moments? Is it simply because she's his most beloved niece? Or, is he really a pedophile?? XD
Anyway, after Honnoji, I'm really looking forward to the Hosokawa Tama's tragedy, Shizugatake battle, Hideyoshi vs Ieyasu cold wars, Sekigahara battle and siege of Osaka. In a movie adaptation, the whole city of Osaka was set on fire during the siege, I'd really like to see that, I expect it to be filmed in a big scale esp. because it's the most important moment for the sisters.

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Post by yanie » Feb 11th, '11, 12:49

I just bought this book titled Ogou to Tokugawa Hidetada - 101 no Nazo by Kawaguchi Sunao. It's 101 Q&A-s about Ogou and Tokugawa Hidetada, the historical couple.

This is the first 20 Q&A-s:

Q001. What's Ogou's role in the Shokuho and Edo era?
Q002. What kind of era did Ogou live in?
Q003. Which anecdote that shows Ogou's kindness?
Q004. What were Ogou's other names?
Q005. Where did Ogou spent her youth at?
Q006. What was the pedigree of the Azai clan like?
Q007. What kind of Sengoku daimyou, Ogou's father, Azai Nagamasa was?
Q008. Who are Ogou's siblings and relatives?
Q009. Ogou's mother, Lady Oichi, is the most beautiful woman in the Sengoku era?
Q010. Lady Oichi is not Oda Nobunaga's younger sister?

Q011. What was the scale and construction of the Omi-Odani Castle of the Azai clan?
Q012. When did Azai Nagamasa and Lady Oichi get married?
Q013. Who did Nobunaga order to be Lady Oichi's close aide?
Q014. Why did Azai Nagamasa broke the alliance and attacked Nobunaga?
Q015. How did Lady Oichi let Nobunaga know about her husband's treachery?
Q016. What was the Anegawa Battle (Azai-Asakura vs Oda-Tokugawa)?
Q017. How did Nagamasa and his father, Hisamasa, reached their last moments?
Q018. Is it true that Nobunaga abused Nagamasa and Hisamasa's skulls?
Q019. Why Ogou's older brother, Azai Manpukumaru, was killed?
Q020. What happened to the Azai clan after the fall of Odani castle?

The answers and explanations in this book are based on many historians' findings (letters, paintings, etc).

I'm planning to translate answers for Q003, Q010 and Q018. But if there are any other questions you'd like to know the answers of, please let me know ^_^

After Ep10 is aired, I'll translate the next 10 Q&A-s which are mostly on Shibata Katsuie, Gou's stepfather^^ ...and so on, as the next episodes aired... as to not give much spoilers for those who aren't familiar to Sengoku history^^

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 11th, '11, 15:51

asian_grl wrote:
yanie wrote:
bmwracer wrote:Romantic? :scratch:
It depends on how each audience see it.

But apparently, this article mentioned, that in this adaptation, Nobunaga is Gou's first love, indeed :mrgreen:
http://zasshi.news.yahoo.co.jp/article? ... the_tv-ent
I'm not the only crazy one then. Because omg that horseback scene.. I kept thinking how good they looked together and how they looked like they were going to kiss :crazy:
Hmm, I only saw a father-daughter thing... I guess you see what you want to see. :P

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 11th, '11, 15:57

yanie wrote:Wondering about Nobunaga's feelings for Gou, in this adaptation, though.
Why would he saw Gou in his last moments? Is it simply because she's his most beloved niece? Or, is he really a pedophile?? XD
Definitely the former and not the latter... There was no evidence of that in any scene of the drama...

At least in this adaptation.

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Post by P@permoon » Feb 11th, '11, 16:07

yanie wrote: Please read this: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/濃姫
Very little historical facts found on No-hime. Her mother's father's surname is Akechi, so there's A THEORY that No-hime is Mitsuhide's cousin. But since Mitsuhide's first half of life (before he met Nobunaga) is unclear, itself, it cannot be confirmed. No-hime's life after her marriage with Nobunaga was also separated into a few theories. Some said, she died young. Some said, they had a divorce. Some also said, that she also fought with a sword in Honnoji Temple and died there. It's one of the historical THEORY by historians.
I know. Nohime might remain a mystery. But some theories could be eliminated by historians. A divorce because of the antipathy between Nobunaga and her, resulting into sending her back to her Clan, would be plausible. If she would have died young, like Kitsuno (Nobunaga´s favourite concubine), you would expect her, as Nobunaga´s official wife, to be buried within a tomb. But not only are there no records on her life, she practically vanished from the planet. The most interesting theory is the one, that she was nothing more than a spy sent into the Oda Clan. That would explain a lot.

But Nohime definitely was not killed at Honnoji. Eyewitnesses like Yasuke (the black slave Italian Jesuit Alessandro Valignano lend Nobunaga) and Akechi Soldiers would have recognised and reported about her. Yasuke was at Honnoji the day before, and even by his own admission, during the attack. He fled and went with Nobutada to Azuchi, he later surrendered to Mitsuhide and was brought to the Church in Kyoto on Akechi´s order, because he was afraid to kill him. Yasuke knew who was present, the same goes for the Akechi soldiers, who knew their victims. If Nohime would have been killed there, her name would stand on the memory stone.

yanie wrote: Basically, we can't really say what's right or wrong, what's faithful and what's not, regarding a historical adaptation. It's hard to prove how true the written history is, unless we meet those historical figures ourselves, which is impossible.
That´s true to an extent were you have no facts in hand at all. Sometimes you just have to use your imagination to create an interesting story. But sometimes it´s also that writers/producers are following before established chliches, rather than doing some research or trying to hide certain facts by changing historical figures or bringing in unrelated. Not all viewers are interested enough to pick up a history book afterwards and even more believe what they see on TV to be the truth. So facts and fantasy gets often mixed up.
yanie wrote: My preference is purely preference. I'm not saying that "Komyo ga Tsuji" is more historically accurate (since I don't know much on the history details), but I simply just like how that adaptation tells the details about Mitsuhide, better, because it makes me understand his actions^^
And there is no problem, if you enjoyed the story. :)
yanie wrote: So, there's a historical fact that states Gou, the real person, have never actually met Nobunaga? Aww... so, this part in GOU is just pure fiction XD (hehe, I can guess already, but kinda bumped me to get a confirmation :P)
She is even unlikely to have ever left Uncle Nobukane´s lands. The real Gou, appears as the typical sengoku princess, that was raised isolated just with her mother, sisters and wet nurses, without any records until her first marriage. Which was common. Female children were not welcome in the Samurai society, let alone being introduced to a general, lord or invited to official military events. They had to consort with women only until the time of their marriage. Birthdates and birthplaces were usually not recorded, or forgotten, not that it would matter, since you would turn one year older each new year.
yanie wrote: Are? You didn't read this part?
http://zasshi.news.yahoo.co.jp/article? ... the_tv-ent
And btw, the article meant he's her first love in THIS adaptation^^
I read the full article, that announced the love story between Gou and Hidekatsu, and I understood it as, that they were referring in that paragraph to Hidekatsu as Gou´s first love, who was Nobunaga´s son and appears to resemble him, they went on writing about a love scene between Akira and Juri, which is scheduled to be filmed soon.
yanie wrote: now I understand, why some adaptations would make it like Ichi loves Nobunaga as a man, and not as a brother. So, Gou-Nobunaga might not be blood-related as well
Wondering about Nobunaga's feelings for Gou, in this adaptation, though.
Nohime, Ichi ... attempts of homophobic writers to draw a woman into the last decade of Nobunaga´s life. :roll
yanie wrote:
Why would he saw Gou in his last moments? Is it simply because she's his most beloved niece? Or, is he really a pedophile??
Just because she is the main character? Or let me say, because Ueno Juri is the leading actress? The scene in the fire and on the horse appeared very "fanservice-like" and out of place, so much that it seemed clear, it was merely for everyone who wanted to see Nobunaga & Gou. It´s on yourself, how you want to interpret it. If the viewer is an open person, knows some history or might even be a reki-jo, you go for the historic couple Nobunaga & Ranmaru, or you can choose the fantasy pairing of Nobunaga & Gou. Whereas the latter pairing is only inspired by Juri herself, since if they would have actually casted a child actress to play young Gou, it would suddenly become improbable to pair her with an man three times her age, or it would pass into a father-daughter image. It´s obviously fanservice for the actresses fans, so are most of her scenes in the series so far. They brought her into a world, where Gou has never been in her life, just to explore Nobunaga.

Nobunaga was not pedophile. He loved a boy and became his lover, yes, but that was seen as the purest and true form of a romantic love relationship at that time. All his life, Nobunaga did not really show particular interest in relationships with woman, in contrast to Hideyoshi, who was .... well. Even Kitsuno was only regarded for presenting him children, but he liked her most out of the three, or rather two, woman he was ever sleeping with.
yanie wrote: Regarding Ep4, Nobunaga-Ichi's scene intrigued me very much.
Nobunaga told Ichi, he want to adopt the sisters, and he's planning to marry off Chacha with the Prince, the Emperor's successor. I wonder if this is purely made up by the scriptwriter? Or did it exist as one of the historical theory/fact, that Nobunaga once planned this?? If it's purely written by the writer, I have to say it's a brilliant idea. I like it that the sisters might have a chance to have totally different lives if only it's Nobunaga who adopt them, and not Hideyoshi. :roll
I believe it was solely the idea of Kumiko Tabuchi, since there are really no historical mentions, that talk about Nobunaga ever thinking about his nieces. But the idea is a little far-stretched with Nobunaga inviting his sister and nieces to live together with him at Azuchi. Ichi would be no problem, but the girls staying in he castle is doubtful. Even Nobunaga´s own daugthers were sent away, to be raised in different castles alone under woman. Exceptions on court were only married woman, ladies like Nene or female servants like Sai. That also brings up the question, why Nobunaga should care more about his nieces, when he has 7 daugthers and even more granddaughters, he could marry off to form an alliance. Gou, Hatsu and Chacha were still Azai daugthers. Why should Nobunaga prefer children from a clan he eradicated just a few years ago and help to re-establish it, instead to strengthen and spread out his own clan?
Peggy wrote: He could read people and chose his retainers for their character and future usefulness in his plans. Mitsuhide was a mistake in my opinion and would never have been loyal even if he had not acted on his rage at the temple.
He proved himself as a good strategian in battles though, but as a Samurai, I agree, he had neither the material-art skills nor the morals. Sometimes I think that an open talk with Nobunaga about his worries (especially the Sakamoto-Castle-Issue) might have helped a lot, but this man was just so withdrawn, paranoid and opportunistic. Maybe if Hideyoshi and Nobunaga would have listened to Ranmaru and the Physiognomy-Theorie (= Mitsuhide as natural Traitor). You can´t change the nature of a person, but you might change his path?
Peggy wrote: I truly want to believe that Ranmaru was such a beautiful young samurai with great ideals for his life with his Lord.
I believe it! :wub:

lullabye wrote: Seto Koji was great as Ranmaru
He is brilliant! :cry:

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Post by 7th-key » Feb 11th, '11, 17:05

Although I did benefit from the fanservice (as p@permoon put it :D), I too felt that Nobunaga having a vision of Gō was a bit forced, even with him being quite fond of his niece.
Actually that scene should have belonged Ranmaru directly assisting Nobunaga with the seppuku and his pain having to "dispose" his masters head. (By the way how did he do that? Acid? At what temperature did the fire at Honnōji burn? *g*)

About the last scene of the ep:
I do think that Gō has an innocent one way crush on her uncle and that the two actors have chemistry, but for me that scene was just a metaphor for Nobunaga's teachings giving Gō strength.

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 11th, '11, 17:34

7th-key wrote:Although I did benefit from the fanservice (as p@permoon put it :D), I too felt that Nobunaga having a vision of Gō was a bit forced, even with him being quite fond of his niece.
Actually that scene should have belonged Ranmaru directly assisting Nobunaga with the seppuku and his pain having to "dispose" his masters head. (By the way how did he do that? Acid? At what temperature did the fire at Honnōji burn? *g*)
Yeah, you've got to have some pretty high temps (1600F-1800F) to break down bones... And I doubt Ranmaru had the time to stoke up a really good fire to those temps.
About the last scene of the ep:
I do think that Gō has an innocent one way crush on her uncle and that the two actors have chemistry, but for me that scene was just a metaphor for Nobunaga's teachings giving Gō strength.
Yup, totally innocent.

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Post by lullabye » Feb 11th, '11, 20:44

7th-key wrote:Actually that scene should have belonged Ranmaru directly assisting Nobunaga with the seppuku and his pain having to "dispose" his masters head. (By the way how did he do that? Acid? At what temperature did the fire at Honnōji burn? *g*)
Yeah, it should have been Ranmaru, but I understand that portraying the actual relationship between him and Nobunaga, and their suicides, would be problematic given modern concerns. Last thing anyone needs is a bunch of easily influenced teenagers deciding to emulate Ranmaru's final act.

But what an act it must have been. Surely he took apart Nobunaga's body and scattered the pieces into various hot fires so that there could be no identification made. And then committed seppuku himself, with no one to end his suffering as he died alone in the flames. It was truly an astonishing act of loyalty and will, which is why he was so highly admired by the samurai afterwards.

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Post by P@permoon » Feb 11th, '11, 23:59

In his Novel "Taiko" described Eiji Yoshikawa, that Ranmaru used wood to build a coffin around Nobunaga, for lighter inflaming. There was also the possibility that the boy used fuel in form of the little shokudai (small oil lanterns) to heat up the fire. I don´t know to what degree the bones would have been burnt, but considering that they also lay under ruins could really make it difficult to piece everything together again.

:salut: We know one thing for sure, Ranmaru did neat work there. :pale:
But to die alone in such agony, that really takes one very special kind of a young Samurai. :cry:
7th-key wrote: Actually that scene should have belonged Ranmaru directly assisting Nobunaga with the seppuku and his pain having to "dispose" his masters head.
Now, that would have been a grand final!
Somebody should get Toyokawa and Seto together again and make this into a movie! NOW!
For movies, at least, there are no restrictions and they don´t have to hold back out of family-friendliness with Samurai business. :glare:

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Post by yanie » Feb 12th, '11, 00:42

P@permoon wrote:I know. Nohime might remain a mystery. But some theories could be eliminated by historians. A divorce because of the antipathy between Nobunaga and her, resulting into sending her back to her Clan, would be plausible. If she would have died young, like Kitsuno (Nobunaga´s favourite concubine), you would expect her, as Nobunaga´s official wife, to be buried within a tomb. But not only are there no records on her life, she practically vanished from the planet. The most interesting theory is the one, that she was nothing more than a spy sent into the Oda Clan. That would explain a lot.

But Nohime definitely was not killed at Honnoji. Eyewitnesses like Yasuke (the black slave Italian Jesuit Alessandro Valignano lend Nobunaga) and Akechi Soldiers would have recognised and reported about her. Yasuke was at Honnoji the day before, and even by his own admission, during the attack. He fled and went with Nobutada to Azuchi, he later surrendered to Mitsuhide and was brought to the Church in Kyoto on Akechi´s order, because he was afraid to kill him. Yasuke knew who was present, the same goes for the Akechi soldiers, who knew their victims. If Nohime would have been killed there, her name would stand on the memory stone.
To each his own :roll We are free to choose which historical theory we believe based on the found facts and proves. But the historians must have some kind of grounds and facts as well to make up the theory on No-hime's existence during the Honnoji incident, as weak as they are. There's still a little chance that No-hime was there, although other theory proved to be stronger. In fact, if you watch the various Honnoji clips I provided above, most of the adaptations used the theory that No-hime fought in the Honnoji incident, so that theory must not be 100% nonsense. GOU might really be the first Honnoji adaptation ever that doesn't include No-hime^^

P@permoon wrote:That´s true to an extent were you have no facts in hand at all.
Sometimes even the weakest theory have the possibility to be proved right :-)

P@permoon wrote:She is even unlikely to have ever left Uncle Nobukane´s lands. The real Gou, appears as the typical sengoku princess, that was raised isolated just with her mother, sisters and wet nurses, without any records until her first marriage. Which was common. Female children were not welcome in the Samurai society, let alone being introduced to a general, lord or invited to official military events. They had to consort with women only until the time of their marriage. Birthdates and birthplaces were usually not recorded, or forgotten, not that it would matter, since you would turn one year older each new year.
LOL, aww.... so Tabuchi Kumiko really exagerrated stuff, huh XD

P@permoon wrote:
yanie wrote: Are? You didn't read this part?
http://zasshi.news.yahoo.co.jp/article? ... the_tv-ent
And btw, the article meant he's her first love in THIS adaptation^^
I read the full article, that announced the love story between Gou and Hidekatsu, and I understood it as, that they were referring in that paragraph to Hidekatsu as Gou´s first love, who was Nobunaga´s son and appears to resemble him, they went on writing about a love scene between Akira and Juri, which is scheduled to be filmed soon.
Please, let me translate it directly here, then.
また、江の恋の相手ということで、初恋の相手・織田信長(豊川悦司)のイメージと重なるよう、黒っぽい着物姿などで演じる予定となっている。

Mata, Gou no koi no aite to iu koto de, hatsukoi no aite - Oda Nobunaga (Toyokawa Etsushi) no imeeji to kasanaru you, kuroppoi kimono sugata nado de enjiru yotei to natteiru.

Since he(Hidekatsu) will be Gou's romance partner, it is planned that he will be wearing dark colored kimono-s, as so he would look like he resembles Gou's first love, Oda Nobunaga (Etsushi Toyokawa).
Not that it matters much, whether or not the taiga drama meant Nobunaga to be Gou's first love. Perhaps it's just the news article writer's own assumption :lol

P@permoon wrote:Nohime, Ichi ... attempts of homophobic writers to draw a woman into the last decade of Nobunaga´s life. :roll
I guess that's what NHK does, they never allow yaoi stuff shown on their productions :P Shinsengumi was historically reported to have many yaoi relationships inside the group, but the 2004 taiga drama gave the Shinsengumi members so many women as if to deny those yaoi facts :D

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Post by lullabye » Feb 12th, '11, 03:56

yanie wrote:
P@permoon wrote:But Nohime definitely was not killed at Honnoji. Eyewitnesses like Yasuke (the black slave Italian Jesuit Alessandro Valignano lend Nobunaga) and Akechi Soldiers would have recognised and reported about her. Yasuke was at Honnoji the day before, and even by his own admission, during the attack. He fled and went with Nobutada to Azuchi, he later surrendered to Mitsuhide and was brought to the Church in Kyoto on Akechi´s order, because he was afraid to kill him. Yasuke knew who was present, the same goes for the Akechi soldiers, who knew their victims. If Nohime would have been killed there, her name would stand on the memory stone.
To each his own :roll We are free to choose which historical theory we believe based on the found facts and proves. But the historians must have some kind of grounds and facts as well to make up the theory on No-hime's existence during the Honnoji incident, as weak as they are. There's still a little chance that No-hime was there, although other theory proved to be stronger. In fact, if you watch the various Honnoji clips I provided above, most of the adaptations used the theory that No-hime fought in the Honnoji incident, so that theory must not be 100% nonsense. GOU might really be the first Honnoji adaptation ever that doesn't include No-hime^^
There is no historical theory that No was at Honnoji. It is entirely a dramatic contrivance to substitute a woman for Ranmaru after permanent Western contact made samurai sexual morality unacceptable to openly acknowledge. Historians had nothing to do with it. It is no more historical that No was at Honnoji than that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree. Neither event happened, though it is at least possible that little Georgie might have had access to an axe, though not a cherry tree.

The dramatic clips prove nothing as far as historical possibility. No was not there. She did not fight. There are many things which are dramatically repeated which simply aren't so. You may like a fictional retelling better than the reality, but it doesn't change the reality nor is there some sort of option to accept the fiction as reality.

All the same, within this fictionalized world of Gou, I like how Honnoji was handled. As your clips show, this current story is closer to what is actually accepted by historians as having happened than previous TV dramas have been. And that makes me hopeful for the rest of the series, that it will be relatively accurate.

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Post by yanie » Feb 12th, '11, 04:09

lullabye wrote:There is no historical theory that No was at Honnoji.
May I know your reference of this? :scratch:

Because according to Japanese wikipedia page, that theory exist. And also in some other English sites I saw.

Of course, wikipedia can be wrong. So please let me know the references and sources you have, that made you so sure the "Honnoji-Nohime" theory does not exist :roll

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 12th, '11, 05:33

^ I think when you're watching this drama or any historical drama, that you have to take what's presented with a grain of salt: The fundamental story is probably tied to historical facts, but probably not all of the recreations/reenactments are true... It is, after all, for the viewers' entertainment. :)

If it were solely based on facts, this wouldn't be a Taiga, but Sengoku Period History 101. :mrgreen:

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Post by lullabye » Feb 12th, '11, 06:04

yanie wrote:
lullabye wrote:There is no historical theory that No was at Honnoji.
May I know your reference of this? :scratch:

Because according to Japanese wikipedia page, that theory exist. And also in some other English sites I saw.

Of course, wikipedia can be wrong. So please let me know the references and sources you have, that made you so sure the "Honnoji-Nohime" theory does not exist :roll
The Wikipedia article says that historical novels make use of the idea that No was at Honniji. It does not say that historians support such an idea. Nor does it give any citations saying that there is a work by a credible historian that No participated at Honniji. If someone who is trustworthy has made that argument, tell me who it is, because I am interested to know.

If we are citing random web pages, http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-Des ... uhime.html says that there is some evidence that No died years after the Honnoji Incident, which makes it unlikely she was there at all, and certainly not fighting.

I tried taking a look at Google Scholar in Japanese, but what little I found that cited both her and Honnoji was referring again to dramas and not history. I admit both that my Japanese ability is extremely poor and that I did not look at every single one of the scholar results, only the ones that had both 本能寺 and 濃姫 and not just one or the other. Again, if you can find a book by a respected historian that argues for No being there, I would like to know.

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Post by lullabye » Feb 12th, '11, 06:17

bmwracer wrote:^ I think when you're watching this drama or any historical drama, that you have to take what's presented with a grain of salt: The fundamental story is probably tied to historical facts, but probably not all of the recreations/reenactments are true... It is, after all, for the viewers' entertainment. :)

If it were solely based on facts, this wouldn't be a Taiga, but Sengoku Period History 101. :mrgreen:
So true! :lol

I prefer a larger quotient of fact to fiction, but a person like Gou, who doesn't really have much written history about her, is perfect for writing into the blank spaces between major events.

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Post by yanie » Feb 12th, '11, 06:33

This is my understanding of the Japanese wiki page :-)
本能寺の変の際に薙刀を振るって夫・信長とともに敵兵と戦って戦死したという説もあるが、歴史小説などで用いられているこの本能寺での死亡説の信憑性は低い。

Honnoji no hen no sai ni naginata wo furu tte otto Nobunaga to tomo ni tekihei to tatakatte senshi shita to iu setsu mo aru ga, rekishi shousetsu nado de mochiirareteiru kono Honnoji de no shibousetsu no shinpyousei wa hikui.

There's also a theory that she fought the enemy with a long sword together with her husband, Nobunaga, and died in the battle of Honnoji Incident. But this theory used in historicals novels and others, has a low credibility/authenticity.
I just thought setsu = theory. And that if it is called a theory, it means something made up by the historians based on found facts, but then again I might be wrong :D Sorry if I upset you.

Apparently, there's a maid named No died in the Honnoji incident, maybe that's how people (historians or not) came up with the theory that No-hime died in the incident. But then again, even No-hime's existence herself is questionable to the historians, ne XD

but a person like Gou, who doesn't really have much written history about her,
I would apply this sentence for someone like No-hime, but definitely not Gou. Gou has quite many written history on her (of course, mostly after her first marriage) and especially after her marriage with Hidetada. Gou and Hidetada is the couple who established the foundation of the Tokugawa shogunate. She may not be popular in TV, movie, games adaptations, but the written history proves that Gou is an important historical figure^^
Last edited by yanie on Feb 12th, '11, 07:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 12th, '11, 06:48

yanie wrote:She may not be popular in TV, movie, games adaptations, but the written history proves that Gou is an important historical figure^^
That'll change with Juri-chan's performance. :mrgreen: :wub:

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Post by lullabye » Feb 12th, '11, 07:25

yanie wrote:I just thought setsu = theory. And that if it is called a theory, it means something made up by the historians based on found facts, but then again I might be wrong :D Sorry if I upset you.
No worries. I'm not upset. I think it is obvious from the context of the paragraph that the "theory" mentioned is merely a popular one, not a scholarly one. And because I am a scholar, I just had to keep looking for scholarly information. This site suggests Okada Masahito's Oda Nobunaga Soogyoo Jiten, which discredits the idea that No was at Honniji. (I really must stop looking for sources and go to sleep!:sleeping:)
yanie wrote:Apparently, there's a maid named No died in the Honnoji incident, maybe that's how people (historians or not) came up with the theory that No-hime died in the incident. But then again, even No-hime's existence herself is questionable to the historians, ne XD
I don't think her existence is questionable to historians, just when she existed. :D
lullabye wrote:but a person like Gou, who doesn't really have much written history about her,
yanie wrote:I would apply this sentence for someone like No-hime, but definitely not Gou. Gou has quite many written history on her (of course, mostly after her first marriage) and especially after her marriage with Hidetada. Gou and Hidetada is the couple who established the foundation of the Tokugawa shogunate. She may not be popular in TV, movie, games adaptations, but the written history proves that Gou is an important historical figure^^ :D


Ah, I merely meant for the early years. :doh: This fanciful stuff about her relationship with her uncle--oh, why not? It could be so. Or not. No one was really paying attention to her at that point, and it's acceptable dramatic license. Once the sisters (and Oichi) start getting married, there will be enough material that nothing will need to be made up, so I am hopeful (seeing as how they did a pretty good job with Honnoji) that this taiga will impress with its accurate portrayal of events and people.

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Post by avieamber » Feb 12th, '11, 11:47

wow 5th episode was great!
Though I hated Nobunaga at first for causing the death of Gou's father, the short conversation with Ichi about how he didn't mind being the only one to blame for all this was touching. And then finally, when he was betrayed and died, I find myself feeling sad for him. The meeting with imaginary Gou was beautiful. So was him riding and giving Gou confidence to live on at the last part of the episode. It was such a brilliant scene! Love Gou's wide-eyed reaction as she turned around to see him, so majestic looking and the part where she repeated "You will live on.." and finally realizing the meaning and then tearing up. She really did an awesome job conveying the emotions! :cry: Ahh....i never knew i'd miss Nobunaga this much.

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Post by seshilia » Feb 12th, '11, 15:04

bmwracer wrote:
yanie wrote:She may not be popular in TV, movie, games adaptations, but the written history proves that Gou is an important historical figure^^
That'll change with Juri-chan's performance. :mrgreen: :wub:
# :thumleft:

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Post by Peggy » Feb 12th, '11, 20:46

Have only d/l 5th episode. I think they missed a wonderful truth if they did not place the emphasis on the Ranmaru actions. This was truly the most dramatic part that would have been much more honest about Nobunaga and his true association with his younger companion. It was a very important and great honour for the one who helped with seppuku. I do not regard it as a romantic gesture in a drama but a final desolate gift between two men with a long deep friendship. To think of a young man, almost a boy by our terms, dealing with this and then being alone to take his own life is beyond understanding.
Visions of Gou seem a little hoky to me even if she is the star of the drama.

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Post by Peggy » Feb 12th, '11, 20:57

I just wondered..why would a Japanese drama have to step delicately around samurai master and companion association. It is well known that samurai had this homosexual relationship and then they would revert to heterosexual life once they returned home to family. I am assuming that this drama is made for Japanese audiences. Surely they would know and understand the history.
Modern day western countries are not uptight about sexual partners anymore surely. I know it was undercover when I was in school and it surprised me no end when I read..(out of school history) that Julius Caesar was homosexual. It did not seem scandalous to me and that was in the dark ages!!
Why would they dance around the very well known life of such a great daimyo and his lover. Seems silly to me.
Well just another opinion...

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Post by Liubeibei » Feb 12th, '11, 21:41

Peggy wrote:I just wondered..why would a Japanese drama have to step delicately around samurai master and companion association. It is well known that samurai had this homosexual relationship and then they would revert to heterosexual life once they returned home to family. I am assuming that this drama is made for Japanese audiences. Surely they would know and understand the history.
Modern day western countries are not uptight about sexual partners anymore surely. I know it was undercover when I was in school and it surprised me no end when I read..(out of school history) that Julius Caesar was homosexual. It did not seem scandalous to me and that was in the dark ages!!
Why would they dance around the very well known life of such a great daimyo and his lover. Seems silly to me.
Well just another opinion...
I am not sure if you're familiar with a video game series called Sengoku Musou (Samurai Warriors in the West). In the first game of the series, it heavily hints the relationship between Nobunaga and Ranmaru. Since the game is very loosely based on history, Mitsuhide also seems to have a thing for Ranmaru.

In it, Nobunaga calls Ranmaru by "O-Ran," as people would call women's names back then, with an O in front of their names.

Just thought it was interesting when I was first exposed to it, so I searched around and found, like you said, that it was quite common back then.

The game was made in 2004, by the way.

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Post by Peggy » Feb 12th, '11, 23:30

No, I have never dabbled in games. At least not yet. Too many films and dramas to investigate... Unknown item for me that Mitsuhide had an interest in Ranmaru. I think he would be treading on very dangerous ground if attempted. I doubt he would risk.

Also was thinking that Musashi had his young sidekick when he was wandering...? after Sekigahara maybe? Perhaps later than that. Bit hazy now about that.

Been searching to find ''Heaven and Earth' again. that was a marvellous warring era tale.

Found some mentions. I think much of the large battle scenes were done in Canada in one version. Was CG used? don't know.

I think I have to start to watch 'GOU' now that I have five episodes.

Someone mentioned earlier the possibility that viewers would copy clear scenes of seppuku. I would disagree because it is a very difficult and unpleasant action to take upon your body all alone. Also I don't think it would happen because otherwise we would have people copying Korean dramas where people had to kill themselves by drinking a bowl of poisoned liquid... this in front of the Royal court or in exile with Royal Guards standing by. It appears so theatrical that I doubt it would tempt someone to copy.

Seppuku needs a Ranmaru ,otherwise it will be forgotten.

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Post by P@permoon » Feb 13th, '11, 01:08

Taken from here: Secrets of Japan

The decline of shudo started with the westernization of Japan. At the end of the industrial revolution, homosexuality had disappeared from the social realm. Even today, the Japanese only speak of it as a deficiency or a sexual anomaly. This is a direct result of the anti-homosexual society that has been established, as it was in Europe. Modern writers and historians purposely hide this tradition from foreigners, as they do from the Japanese themselves. They have deemed it an ancient dishonor, and a sign of underdevelopment of Japanese society.

With the introduction of western thought and the Christian ideal of homophobia, no one remembered that at the time of Japan's greatest glory, the traditional Japanese arts of No and Kabuki were homosexual theaters linked with prostitution. That what was called the flower of the samurai spirit and formed the real basis of the samurai aesthetic was shudo, the love of young men. We now understand that it is impossible to understand the traditional civilization of Japan without taking into account these predominant homosexual traditions.


To that purpose, how Lullabye said before and I was trying to bring across in my former posts, writers introduced Nohime as Ranmaru substitute in the recent decades and it became clichéd. In the last years, Ranmaru returned but appeared most of the time only in the backround, dying randomly before Nobunaga. A friend once told me, that it´s very unusual to know about shudo, when you would not have studied Japanology, even in Japan. Although the relationship between Nobunaga and Ranmaru is a known and well-respected fact in Japan by people who are familiar with history and it´s slowly spreading across to the younger generation again. But still appears to be a difficult topic to bring up, in history lessons and such.

It´s not that you have to depict a shudo relationship with kissing or touching if you want to bring it on screen. That barely occurred in the open back then, just like it was uncommon to get intimate with your wife in the open. I loved the way it was silently potrayed in Gou between Nobunaga and Ranmaru. They seemed very close, and it was not overdone with besotted glances.

Because of Ranmaru´s seppuku. I agree with you Peggy, and personally would have prefered to see an more realistic final, with a badly wounded Ranmaru returning to the dead Nobunaga for the last strike, instead of Nobunaga meeting Gou. But I think that this might be to harsh for a TV production, that´s supposed to be family-friendly. Showing Nobunaga´s seppuku didn´t seemed to be a problem before though. But Ranmaru´s might be, because he is more idolized as hero and was still just 16/17 years old. I once read, that Ranmaru was kind of the trigger for a seppuku-boom among fellow Samurai. You never know what ideas labile kids nowadays might get, seeing a heroic death like Ranmaru´s in detail. Lullabye is right.

But, I really loved :wub: ...
the tearful parting between Nobunaga and Ranmaru! :cry:
It was fabulously played and truly a great climax, making this Honnoji version the best and most authentic. Even without the visul seppuku.
Liubeibei wrote: In it, Nobunaga calls Ranmaru by "O-Ran," as people would call women's names back then, with an O in front of their names.
O-Ran (おらん) was indeed said to have been Nobunaga´s, let´s say pet name, for Ranmaru. :-)

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Post by Peggy » Feb 13th, '11, 01:39

It is all very interesting to see the way history is revised and re written for any country. I suppose the ancient Greeks and Romans were sanitized before any English girls school would be given their history books. We never studied Asian history unless it touched on colonisation. Even the American colonial wars were regarded as a skirmish not worth getting upset over. Believe me I am not being snobbish. I am a longtime citizen of US .
I still think at my old age that it is much ado about very little. I am sure many of my peers would be shocked at my attitude, but really what in the world is wrong with one man loving another especially when they are warriors never at home, at least it seems that way during that warring period. Some aspects of life have to be regarded as normal in their time. Then and now.

I have been reading more about Nobunaga, and he was indeed a very interesting character. Yes a harsh warrior but also a poet and person who sang and danced prior to war. He introduced or re-introduced the gentler aspects of the tea ceremony.He had the capacity for designing buildings and gardens and using art forms within and without. It is no wonder that his idea of perfection also clothed his personal connection with Ranmaru. It must have been a wonderful friendship apart from a sexual one.
It always seemed funny (HAHA) to me that Hideyoshi kept Rikyu with him after the death of Nobunaga as his master of the Tea Ceremony. Considering his humble beginnings he liked to embrace the higher niceties. Didn't stop him having the man commit seppuku later, on a trifling anger.
It's a fascinating time in history. Henry VIII and Shakespears on one side of the globe and Fighting daimyos on the other. Close enough anyway in time.

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Post by clhatake » Feb 13th, '11, 17:42

does anyone know whether an OST was release for the drama? the music is awesome. e.g. the music played during oda nobunaga's death at the end.

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Post by 7th-key » Feb 13th, '11, 17:55

clhatake wrote:does anyone know whether an OST was release for the drama? the music is awesome. e.g. the music played during oda nobunaga's death at the end.
Released date February 16, 2011
amazon.co.jp link

I really love the soundtrack too, although maybe a little bit too prominent sometimes.

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Post by yanie » Feb 14th, '11, 01:41

Ep6 doesn't make much sense for me...
Do you really buy a 9 years old girl have courage to hand herself in to an enemy, in order to protect her men? :scratch:
And, Gou-Akechi's scene was kind of over the top... doesn't seem natural anymore for me, that Gou would have conversations with every ruler and would ask them why they do certain things.
I really can't wait till Gou grows up, so I don't have to see more of these nonsense plots.
Besides above mentioned parts, I enjoyed the rest of Ep6... well, except that they didn't show much of Hideyoshi-Akechi battle^^;;;

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 14th, '11, 04:36

^ I think if you stop being fixated on her age, you'll enjoy the Taiga a whole lot more. :pale:

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Post by yanie » Feb 14th, '11, 04:51

bmwracer wrote:^ I think if you stop being fixated on her age, you'll enjoy the Taiga a whole lot more. :pale:
It's hard coz I tend to care the chronology of the story XD
I can still ignore the part when she acted brave, I can see that's just one of the excitement needed in a drama. But that Gou-Akechi scene really bothers me, its too much exagerrated(dramatized) imho, even if I pretend she's 16 in that scene.

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Post by Liubeibei » Feb 14th, '11, 06:07

Yeah the Battle of Yamazaki is almost non-existent in ep 6 :(
And I think this is the first adaptation I've watched where Mitsuhide gets to seppuku.

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Post by yanie » Feb 14th, '11, 06:37

Liubeibei wrote:Yeah the Battle of Yamazaki is almost non-existent in ep 6 :(
And I think this is the first adaptation I've watched where Mitsuhide gets to seppuku.
Tabuchi Kumiko is trying too hard to make every character a good guy in this drama :|
Thus...
... the seppuku. So Akechi would look all patriotic even after his betrayal.

His dialogues with Gou made him look very indecisive and wishy-washy, btw^^;;;

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Post by Liubeibei » Feb 14th, '11, 07:12

yanie wrote:
Liubeibei wrote:Yeah the Battle of Yamazaki is almost non-existent in ep 6 :(
And I think this is the first adaptation I've watched where Mitsuhide gets to seppuku.
Tabuchi Kumiko is trying too hard to make every character a good guy in this drama :|
Thus...
... the seppuku. So Akechi would look all patriotic even after his betrayal.

His dialogues with Gou made him look very indecisive and wishy-washy, btw^^;;;
IMO, a little too many "I dunno" moments XD. Nobunaga - The Lady Tsukiyama Incident and now Mitsuhide - Honnoji.
Still, can't wait for the upcoming episodes involving Shizugatake and Kitanosho Castle...gonna be very sad...

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Post by yanie » Feb 14th, '11, 07:25

Liubeibei wrote:
IMO, a little too many "I dunno" moments XD. Nobunaga - The Lady Tsukiyama Incident and now Mitsuhide - Honnoji.
Still, can't wait for the upcoming episodes involving Shizugatake and Kitanosho Castle...gonna be very sad...
That's true. They definitely wouldn't be able to become a great ruler (or a trusted vassal) if they don't know what they're doing XD
I better not expect much from any war events from now on. I'll just look forward to the family and romantic scenes, because seem like that's only what Tabuchi Kumiko is good at^^;

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Post by yanie » Feb 14th, '11, 07:56

Ep6 rating -> 19.6% :unsure:

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Post by vege-okonomiyaki » Feb 14th, '11, 08:08

yanie wrote:Ep6 doesn't make much sense for me...
Do you really buy a 9 years old girl have courage to hand herself in to an enemy, in order to protect her men? :scratch:
And, Gou-Akechi's scene was kind of over the top... doesn't seem natural anymore for me, that Gou would have conversations with every ruler and would ask them why they do certain things.
I really can't wait till Gou grows up, so I don't have to see more of these nonsense plots.
Besides above mentioned parts, I enjoyed the rest of Ep6... well, except that they didn't show much of Hideyoshi-Akechi battle^^;;;
Totally agree with you Yanie.

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Post by lullabye » Feb 14th, '11, 14:28

yanie wrote:Ep6 rating -> 19.6% :unsure:
It's too be expected. After all, Nobunaga and Ranmaru are now dead. The drama has to continue, but viewers are still a little choked up after Honnoji.

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Post by zettaiKaren » Feb 14th, '11, 20:20

Liubeibei wrote:Yeah the Battle of Yamazaki is almost non-existent in ep 6 :(
My guess is don't expect any big scale battle scences in this taiga, as I suspect most funding is probably being diverted to "Saka no Ue no Kumo" 's post-production SFX work on the 2 remaining major battles ('Battle of 203 meter hill'(land) and 'Battle of Tsushima' (naval)).

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Post by Peggy » Feb 14th, '11, 21:15

I also agree with Yanie regarding the various discussions that Gou has with really important warlords. It does not make sense. It is not her age, because it would not seem sensible even if she were 16 yeers old. She is a woman, and they do not rank as equals most of the time. As for ratings...I don't care too much for them personally... but I am d.l the 1988 jeideki(sp) of 'Takeda Shingen' The third episode had a rating of over 49% and it seemed to stay up in that range all the time. Nowadays to get 20% is considered hard to achieve ! I wonder why this is.

I agree that we shall see very little of the battles in the wars but that is because this is the tale of the woman's side of the period. It's just that they have written so much that contradicts the actual history. It's OK if you don't mind that but it does grate on my thoughts of the reality of that time. The Nobunaga and Mori end tale at the temple could hve been done so much better. Gou and her image had no place there even in imagination of the writer. I think they have given Ueno a very large task and I don't think she can carry such a load throughout this drama. She is doing a good job but this is such a widespread story even if they are telling it from the point of view of the women.
So far it is one point of view from Gou or about her.

I think I will change my expectations and consider this a taiga and a fictional rendering mostly but based on historical people. It is still good to watch.

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 14th, '11, 21:21

Peggy wrote:I think I will change my expectations and consider this a taiga and a fictional rendering mostly but based on historical people. It is still good to watch.
I think you could apply that to most, if not all, historical adaptations... They're first and foremost entertainments, not documentaries. :)

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Post by 7th-key » Feb 14th, '11, 22:22

Peggy wrote: As for ratings...I don't care too much for them personally... but I am d.l the 1988 jeideki(sp) of 'Takeda Shingen' The third episode had a rating of over 49% and it seemed to stay up in that range all the time. Nowadays to get 20% is considered hard to achieve ! I wonder why this is.
I guess in Japan too, there were faaaar less TV channels back in the 80s.
Also, as Mr.Smith said, "Evolution, Morpheus, evolution": Radio -> TV -> Internet. :salut:

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 15th, '11, 00:23

Growing up before our eyes. :mrgreen:

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Post by 7th-key » Feb 15th, '11, 00:51

^ finally. Once Gou is out of childhood Juri-chan will be able to act the emotions on full throttle. :wub:
Especially the more temperamental ones: hehe, I can already see all the Daimyos and Shoguns squirming XD

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Post by Peggy » Feb 15th, '11, 01:21

bmwracer,
You make the right remark re what producers and writers provide now with Historical material. I actually thought we might have a more accurate presentation with GOU for some reason.
I have watched many documentaries which stick to the reality and they are even more exciting that fiction. However, since we have actors and actresses working at careers I can understand they want to emphasise every role to their advantage. I don't mind things being left out but I get irritated when things are put in that could never have happened.
GOU is still a drama to be watched and I think I will enjoy it now that I have re-arranged my thoughts about how it is being shown.
I find Japanese actors especially, take on a real persona of their culture when they are in historical roles. Something there is about a samurai warrior that must enter their psyche with the costume... 8)

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 15th, '11, 04:41

Peggy wrote:I find Japanese actors especially, take on a real persona of their culture when they are in historical roles. Something there is about a samurai warrior that must enter their psyche with the costume... 8)
Quite possibly... There's also some patriotism involved as well, I'm sure... :)

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 15th, '11, 04:42

7th-key wrote:^ finally. Once Gou is out of childhood Juri-chan will be able to act the emotions on full throttle. :wub:
She's doing that right now, I'd say. :salut:

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Post by yanie » Feb 15th, '11, 04:54

bmwracer wrote:
7th-key wrote:^ finally. Once Gou is out of childhood Juri-chan will be able to act the emotions on full throttle. :wub:
She's doing that right now, I'd say. :salut:
I agree. There's no fault in Juri's acting, even as a child :thumright:

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Post by Peggy » Feb 15th, '11, 19:05

Ueno is playing her role extremely well I think. Only when she is at the grown-up Gou will it be obvious that she was perfect as the little girl Gou. There is already a difference as you look at her.

Note...Last night there was a wonderful documentary with a woman commentator about this exact time with Nobunaga and Gou and her family etc. Unfortunately it was without any English and also so late that I could not stay awake to watch it all. I wish that they would repeat at an earlier hour. I only know that it was true to history and very easy to recognise all the characters in history. The battles were there and Gou and her sisters were there being played by child actors with mother and father in one scene.
This must have been NHK and it was a long programme way after midnight.

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 15th, '11, 20:14

Peggy wrote:Ueno is playing her role extremely well I think. Only when she is at the grown-up Gou will it be obvious that she was perfect as the little girl Gou. There is already a difference as you look at her.

Note...Last night there was a wonderful documentary with a woman commentator about this exact time with Nobunaga and Gou and her family etc. Unfortunately it was without any English and also so late that I could not stay awake to watch it all. I wish that they would repeat at an earlier hour. I only know that it was true to history and very easy to recognise all the characters in history. The battles were there and Gou and her sisters were there being played by child actors with mother and father in one scene.
This must have been NHK and it was a long programme way after midnight.
You might check NHK's programming guide... That might tell you what you were watching. :)

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Post by 7th-key » Feb 15th, '11, 21:13

yanie wrote:
bmwracer wrote:
7th-key wrote:^ finally. Once Gou is out of childhood Juri-chan will be able to act the emotions on full throttle. :wub:
She's doing that right now, I'd say. :salut:
I agree. There's no fault in Juri's acting, even as a child :thumright:
Guess I chose the wrong words, I didn't say there was any flaws in her acting a child, I just meant I'm looking forward to her playing a mature Gō. :)

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Post by Peggy » Feb 16th, '11, 05:57

BMWRACER,

Thanks for the nudge. Found the right website and was able to send a message. I just missed gettingthe programmings for that date but hope for a reply. thanks.

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Post by bmwracer » Feb 17th, '11, 04:34

Image Image

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Post by Peggy » Feb 18th, '11, 18:59

Now you can see how great she was acting a nine year old. These pictures show her adult persona.

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Post by seshilia » Feb 19th, '11, 00:33

# I'm gonna miss those "little red ribbons" on her hair... :wub:

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