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[Discussion] GOU ~Himetachi no Sengoku~

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Liubeibei
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Post by Liubeibei » Mar 25th, '11, 15:15

yanie wrote:branch of Tokugawa? or is it the other way around?
It's the other way around. Matsudaira is the clan's original family name. "Tokugawa" didn't exist until 1566 when Ieyasu received the position Mikawa-no-Kami and got the permission from the imperial court for the name change. And at the time, only his own name changed to Tokugawa, and the rest of the clan was still Matsudaira.

Ieyasu reserved the Tokugawa name to only those with power within the clan.

A way to think of this is, if a baby boy is born, he'd take the surname Matsudaira (ex: Tadateru, Tadayoshi). If this boy ends up as the heir, or belongs to one of the 3 branches that are allowed to succeed the Shogunate, then he'd be allowed to take the Tokugawa name (Hidetada, Yoshinao, Yorinobu, and Yorifusa).

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Post by avieamber » Mar 26th, '11, 06:22

regarding ep10
I cried like a baby during the whole Ichi giving her last messages to her 3 daughters :cry: I totally love how at first Gou didn't even cry and was angry that Ichi decided to leave them, but in the end, rushed back to give her one final hug. Totally :wub:

I'm gonna miss Ichi! She's a great character and mother. But I can't wait to see more of Chacha, Hatsu and of course, Gou's stories

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Post by yanie » Mar 28th, '11, 02:32

Ep11
Another episode "sponsored by Kleenex" :cry: I cried buckets. The first 30 mins focuses on how the sisters deals with the fact of their mother's death. I also just lost a mother and I'm of three siblings too, so I feel personally related with the story watching ep11 :cry: Everything the sisters feels is just so true, none exagerration imo. The last 15 mins have a new interesting revelation, which was kind of an amusing situation^^
Further eps spoiler...
Can't wait for the love triangle of Ishida Mitsunari - Chacha - Hideyoshi to start :roll

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Post by vege-okonomiyaki » Apr 2nd, '11, 15:48

I think there might be some sort of behind the scenes special airing on the 23rd of April. Juri-chan's AMUSE page says:

NHK大河ドラマ「江~姫たちの戦国~」 主演

※放送日に関しては変更になる可能性があります。どうぞご了承下さい。

2011.04.23 (土) 21:00

Google Translates this as:

NHK Taiga Drama "Princess River - their civil wars - " Cast

Aired on ※ There is likely to change. Please note interest.

2011.04.23 (Sat) 21:00

Anybody know more?

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Post by yanie » Apr 3rd, '11, 11:56

Enjoyed Ep12! :thumleft:
Finally!! Hidetada(Takechiyo)'s first appearance! My hero! :wub:
Hehe... the child actor, what a handsome little boy :D

Areee..... was the fat boy Ogimaru = Yuki Hideyasuuu~? :-( Gakkari....

Hideyoshi... lol. Such a pervert old man. To think a 46 yrs old man peeking at a 14 yrs old girl :P

I like this version of Ishida Mitsunari :roll
I feel that the pacing gets better and better since Ep.8, focuses only on the princesses' lives, and not trying too hard to involve them in the big historical events, unless they were really obviously involved like the fall of Kitanosho castle :-) Keep it up, Tabuchi-sensei!

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Post by Liubeibei » Apr 3rd, '11, 12:57

vege-okonomiyaki wrote:I think there might be some sort of behind the scenes special airing on the 23rd of April. Juri-chan's AMUSE page says:

NHK大河ドラマ「江~姫たちの戦国~」 主演

※放送日に関しては変更になる可能性があります。どうぞご了承下さい。

2011.04.23 (土) 21:00

Google Translates this as:

NHK Taiga Drama "Princess River - their civil wars - " Cast

Aired on ※ There is likely to change. Please note interest.

2011.04.23 (Sat) 21:00

Anybody know more?
I went to the website and that time slot is actualy for a Nodame episode, not Gou.

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Post by Liubeibei » Apr 3rd, '11, 13:04

yanie wrote:Enjoyed Ep12! :thumleft:
Finally!! Hidetada(Takechiyo)'s first appearance! My hero! :wub:
Hehe... the child actor, what a handsome little boy :D

Areee..... was the fat boy Ogimaru = Yuki Hideyasuuu~? :-( Gakkari....

Hideyoshi... lol. Such a pervert old man. To think a 46 yrs old man peeking at a 14 yrs old girl :P

I like this version of Ishida Mitsunari :roll
I feel that the pacing gets better and better since Ep.8, focuses only on the princesses' lives, and not trying too hard to involve them in the big historical events, unless they were really obviously involved like the fall of Kitanosho castle :-) Keep it up, Tabuchi-sensei!
Poor Saru in this episode...but he deserves it, lol.

I guess this adaptation takes the path where Mitsunari
likes Chacha.
The big dude sure is Ogimaru/Hideyasu (I think the actor is also a comedian or something). Good thing they didn't have Mukai play the 4-year-old Takechiyo XD.

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Post by yanie » Apr 4th, '11, 01:54

Liubeibei wrote:I guess this adaptation takes the path where Mitsunari
likes Chacha.
Almost every adaptation does, except AOI, I think :roll
If I'm not mistaken there was, indeed, a historical rumor that
Hideyori was Mitsunari's child and NOT Hideyoshi's?? XD Oh wait, or was it Ono Harunaga's?? I wonder who is casted as Ono Harunaga in GOU...
Liubeibei wrote:Good thing they didn't have Mukai play the 4-year-old Takechiyo XD.
If they casted a 12 yrs old actor to play 4 yrs old Takechiyo, then I highly suspect Mukai will play the 12 yrs old Takechiyo/Hidetada :D

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Post by bmwracer » Apr 4th, '11, 04:57

Go outtake. :lol

Image

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Post by Liubeibei » Apr 4th, '11, 06:17

yanie wrote:
Liubeibei wrote:I guess this adaptation takes the path where Mitsunari
likes Chacha.
Almost every adaptation does, except AOI, I think :roll
If I'm not mistaken there was, indeed, a historical rumor that
Hideyori was Mitsunari's child and NOT Hideyoshi's?? XD Oh wait, or was it Ono Harunaga's?? I wonder who is casted as Ono Harunaga in GOU...
Yeah, I too have been wondering about Harunaga, How big of a role will he play in this drama, and will he be introduced any time soon as Saki's son.

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Post by yanie » Apr 4th, '11, 08:39

Liubeibei wrote:Yeah, I too have been wondering about Harunaga, How big of a role will he play in this drama, and will he be introduced any time soon as Saki's son.
As far as I read the novel by Tabuchi,
Ono Harunaga will play quite a big role later, as someone very loyal to Lady Yodo(Chacha) and act like her bodyguard. There is an affair rumor of the two in the story, but it is just a rumor. Chacha loves Hideyoshi sincerely in Tabuchi's version :roll

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Post by futarichan » Apr 4th, '11, 13:41

avieamber wrote:regarding ep10
I cried like a baby during the whole Ichi giving her last messages to her 3 daughters :cry: I totally love how at first Gou didn't even cry and was angry that Ichi decided to leave them, but in the end, rushed back to give her one final hug. Totally :wub:

I'm gonna miss Ichi! She's a great character and mother. But I can't wait to see more of Chacha, Hatsu and of course, Gou's stories
THIS +1
also fell lost for... :roll
Image
was such beautiful castle
just watched ep.11
yanie wrote:Ep11
Another episode "sponsored by Kleenex" :cry: I cried buckets. The first 30 mins focuses on how the sisters deals with the fact of their mother's death. I also just lost a mother and I'm of three siblings too, so I feel personally related with the story watching ep11 :cry: Everything the sisters feels is just so true, none exagerration imo. The last 15 mins have a new interesting revelation, which was kind of an amusing situation^^
:lol so true "very much hardcore sponsor" for the series
feel like this one moment was close of one chapter to next one. love it
Image
yanie wrote:
Liubeibei wrote:I guess this adaptation takes the path where Mitsunari
likes Chacha.
Almost every adaptation does, except AOI, I think :roll
If I'm not mistaken there was, indeed, a historical rumor that
Hideyori was Mitsunari's child and NOT Hideyoshi's?? XD Oh wait, or was it Ono Harunaga's?? I wonder who is casted as Ono Harunaga in GOU...
Liubeibei wrote:Good thing they didn't have Mukai play the 4-year-old Takechiyo XD.
If they casted a 12 yrs old actor to play 4 yrs old Takechiyo, then I highly suspect Mukai will play the 12 yrs old Takechiyo/Hidetada :D

I really love the Chacha character in this, very strong to the outside, very soft to all her sisters but still able to portrait a LADY (with all the voice and attitude). :wub:
I will be heartbreak if that not just rumors... :pale:
oh and welcome takechiyo :-)

PR ep.12 + trailer ep 13 *mitai* :w00t:
http://tieba.baidu.com/%C9%CF%D2%B0%CA% ... f8728ebe8/
[/img]

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Post by Liubeibei » Apr 4th, '11, 16:57

Wow, in many versions it's EITHER Mitsunari OR Harunaga, so in Tabuchi-san's version we might actually get a
potential "rectangle" between Chacha/Yodo, Hideyoshi, Mitsunari, AND Harunaga? Can't wait to see how it plays out XD.
Another thing about ep 12, it almost feels like
Hideyoshi is marrying Gou off elsewhere because he sees Oyakata-sama in her and is really afraid of her XD.

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Post by bmwracer » Apr 4th, '11, 19:05

Liubeibei wrote:Another thing about ep 12, it almost feels like
Hideyoshi is marrying Gou off elsewhere because he sees Oyakata-sama in her and is really afraid of her XD.
I wouldn't doubt it... She was ready to kick his ass in Episode 11. :mrgreen:

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Post by bmwracer » Apr 4th, '11, 21:08


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Post by yanie » Apr 5th, '11, 08:29

Btw, have the Tokugawa Shitennou (Four Guardians of the Tokugawa), Ii, Honda, Sakai, Sakakibara appeared during all the Ieyasu scenes? I think I saw Honda and Sakai in the credits? Looking forward to the Red Demon, Ii Naomasa's appearance... wondering just how demon can he be in this adaptation :roll

Can't wait till the Hideyoshi X Ieyasu continous battle starts^^

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Post by bmwracer » Apr 5th, '11, 13:41

Episode 12 was considerably lighter in tone than any of the previous episodes... Nice change of pace. :thumright:

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Post by avieamber » Apr 5th, '11, 16:06

I have a very stupid question to ask, please forgive me but I need to clear something up.

Why do they call the three of them as princesses? The 'hime-sama' title is given to anyone born in families of high status or do they have certain royal blood in them? I'm confused. :scratch: I'm not familiar with their way of calling.

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Post by yanie » Apr 6th, '11, 02:30

avieamber wrote:Why do they call the three of them as princesses? The 'hime-sama' title is given to anyone born in families of high status or do they have certain royal blood in them? I'm confused. :scratch: I'm not familiar with their way of calling.
Well, is there anything that makes you think the Azai sisters might not be of a high status family? :roll Azai Nagamasa, their father, is a daimyo (feudal lord), it's obvious that they're of a high status. Not to mention they're nieces of Oda Nobunaga, the ruler in that era.

If I'm not mistaken, in old Japan, "hime-sama" title is not necessarily only given to the royal family (Emperor family / noble caste), but also to any (female) descendant of the samurai/warrior caste, esp. to daimyo's daughters.

Of course, an exceptional case for Hideyoshi's family, though they're of the farmer caste, Hideyoshi managed to be the Imperial Regent that time, thus female relatives (like his sisters) were called "hime" as well, like Asahi-hime.

If anyone knows better than me, pls correct me^^

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Post by yanie » Apr 6th, '11, 03:40

Oh? The airing time for Ep13 on April 10th, is changed to 7.10 PM?
Thank goodness I know this beforehand^^

Yosshh, can't wait for the first kekkon episode! :D

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Post by avieamber » Apr 6th, '11, 07:47

yanie wrote:
avieamber wrote:Why do they call the three of them as princesses? The 'hime-sama' title is given to anyone born in families of high status or do they have certain royal blood in them? I'm confused. :scratch: I'm not familiar with their way of calling.
Well, is there anything that makes you think the Azai sisters might not be of a high status family? :roll Azai Nagamasa, their father, is a daimyo (feudal lord), it's obvious that they're of a high status. Not to mention they're nieces of Oda Nobunaga, the ruler in that era.

If I'm not mistaken, in old Japan, "hime-sama" title is not necessarily only given to the royal family (Emperor family / noble caste), but also to any (female) descendant of the samurai/warrior caste, esp. to daimyo's daughters.

Of course, an exceptional case for Hideyoshi's family, though they're of the farmer caste, Hideyoshi managed to be the Imperial Regent that time, thus female relatives (like his sisters) were called "hime" as well, like Asahi-hime.

If anyone knows better than me, pls correct me^^
Thanks for clearing up. I had a feeling that they call 'hime' for those with high status, I just want to clarify their way of calling. :salut:

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Post by yanie » Apr 7th, '11, 03:41

Finally! Mukai Osamu (Tokugawa Hidetada) crank-in on the set yesterday!
There was info before, that this week they're shooting Ep24. (I'm getting more convinced he'll act the 12 yrs old Hidetada)

Related program:
向井理の「江~姫たちの戦国~」を巡る旅
BS プレミアム
21日(土) 後7:00~、(再)=28日(土)後4:00~
物語はますます盛り上がりを見せ、いよいよ、江が徳川秀忠との出会いによって、運命が180度変わるターニングポイントを迎えます。番組をもっと楽しんで見てもらえるように、既に放送された物語を振り返ると共に、そのキーパーソンであるお江の夫・徳川秀忠を演じる向井理が、「江」ゆかりの地を訪ね、物語の見どころや醍醐味を紹介します。

source: http://www.nhk.or.jp/bs/lineup/pdf/bspr ... susume.pdf

Mukai Osamu "GOU" Journey, May 21, NHK BS Premium
While recapping the aired episodes, Mukai Osamu will travel to places related to Gou.

According to "The Television" magazine, Mukai will start appear in GOU in May. (which means he'll appear earlier than Ep24?? The last ep in May is suppose to be Ep20.)

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Post by SuiginChou » Apr 7th, '11, 23:54

Hi, I've watched through Episode 10 and after reading the first twenty-two pages of posts in this thread I thought I'd reply to some stuff I saw people commenting on first. Then maybe in another post I can go into some of my thoughts with the other episodes, including the newest ones (11 and 12).

About Tokugawa Ieyasu being depicted as a vassal of Oda Nobunaga's:
A lot of people were saying that they didn't like this -- primarily because it went against depictions of Ieyasu's early life that they'd seen in other dramas. But the thing is, this actually sounds the most historically accurate. According to Wikipedia:
(note: keep in mind that Ieyasu's boyhood name was Takechiyo when reading this big chunk of text :))
In 1548, when the Oda clan invaded Mikawa, Hirotada turned to Imagawa Yoshimoto, the head of the Imagawa clan, for help to repel the invaders. Yoshimoto agreed to help under the condition that Hirotada send his son Takechiyo to Sumpu as a hostage. Hirotada agreed. Oda Nobuhide, the leader of the Oda clan, learned of this arrangement and had Ieyasu abducted from his entourage en route to Sumpu. Ieyasu was just six years old at the time.

Nobuhide threatened to execute Takechiyo unless his father severed all ties with the Imagawa clan. Hirotada replied that sacrificing his own son would show his seriousness in his pact with the Imagawa clan. Despite this refusal, Nobuhide chose not to kill Takechiyo but instead held him for the next three years at the Manshoji Temple in Nagoya.

In 1549, when Takechiyo was 7, his father Hirotada died of natural causes. At about the same time, Oda Nobuhide died during an epidemic. The deaths dealt a heavy blow to the Oda clan. An army under the command of Imagawa Sessai laid siege to the castle where Oda Nobuhiro, Nobuhide's eldest son and the new head of the Oda, was living. With the castle about to fall, Imagawa Sessai offered a deal to Oda Nobunaga (Oda Nobuhide's second son). Sessai offered to give up the siege if Ieyasu was handed over to the Imagawa clan. Nobunaga agreed and so Takechiyo (now nine) was taken as a hostage to Sumpu. Here he lived a fairly good life as hostage and potentially useful future ally of the Imagawa clan until 1556 when he was age 15.
As you can see, Ieyasu was an Oda clan hostage for most of his boyhood. From age 6 until 15, he went from home to home, always a political hostage of the Oda. He actually fought against the Oda in his early manhood but (for political reasons) changed sides and became an ally of the Oda -- which he remained for the rest of Oda Nobunaga's days. Instead of thinking that they were showing Ieyasu as a vassal, you should think that they were showing him as a closely-allied general who's as good as a fellow kinsman. Nobunaga would have personally known Ieyasu (by name and by face) before he'd ever met half of his other vassals. He and Ieyasu, you could say, "go way back." Doesn't mean they were the best of friends. But they had a very mutually beneficial relationship against Takeda Shingen: and I think our story opens at around this time, so it would make sense that we see Ieyasu wining and dining with the Oda clan.

Another thing you can take away from that huge block of quoted text is some insight into why Ieyasu acted as he did in Episode 3.
His own father had been only too happy to sacrifice his son to the Oda wolves if it meant proving his loyalty to the Imagawa clan. Surely this would have had an effect on the impressionable youth, then 6 years old, that his father could do such a thing. Perhaps it is this very reason why Nobunaga tested Ieyasu in this way. Who knows: the line between the TV dramatization and how things played out in real life is a fuzzy one.
About Ueno Juri behaving like Nodame -AND/OR- about Ueno Juri playing a child:
I agree that this has been distracting and I wish the drama didn't do this. But I also don't think that it's too too bad. NHK has done worse (Naoe Kanetsugu in Tenchijin); and Juri's Gou isn't even the worst at this. Mizukawa Asami's Hatsu is probably the #1 character guilty of this. Every time she throws a tantrum or pouts it's just completely over-the-top ridiculous! At first I thought she was just being a clownish actor. Then I realized she was trying to portray an adolescent and suddenly it all made sense. But it's still like nails on a chalkboard every time we have to see her pout while stuffing her face full of manju! Then there's one of my favorite actors, Kitaoji Kinya, who is supposed to be playing an Ieyasu in his 30s (and who would have just turned 40 in Episode 10) and yet he looks like he's already a grandfather of 60!

I really sympathize with those for whom the age thing was just too much. It was the same for me with Tenchijin so I totally know where you're coming from. I'm glad it didn't happen to me with this series but I really can't tell you why it didn't. I just got lucky this time, I guess. Or maybe it just boils down to how much knowledge you have ahead of time? Because I already knew about Kanetsugu's age before starting Tenchijin but I knew nothing about Gou and her sisters. I only found out they were still supposed to be little girls when I started reading timelines on Wikipedia. Maybe this is one of those cases where knowledge ahead of time can ruin a show for you. It happened to some Japanese friends of mine who couldn't stand to watch Karei Naru Ichizoku because they could hear the characters using anachronistic Japanese grammar (e.g. someone using zenzen in the positive as in zenzen heiki). I didn't notice these subtleties and for me the show was -- and remains -- one of the best I've ever seen. Oh well!

About Toyokawa Etsushi as Oda Nobunaga:
This was my first Nobunaga so I'm obviously going to be biased, but ... I absolutely LOVED his portrayal. The moment he showed up onscreen I knew he was Nobunaga. He totally fit my mental image of the warlord -- he looked more like Nobunaga to me than the actual Nobunaga looks like Nobunaga to me! You know what, though? I think I can understand why some may not like his portrayal. Toyokawa portrays Nobunaga very much like another figure who he bears a striking resemblance to (or at least, according to Koei's Dynasty Warriors games he does, hahaha) -- Cao Cao of the Warring States period in ancient China. Cao Cao was portrayed in the classic Romance of the Three Kingdoms as a cunning and ruthless warlord. And you see a lot of that in Toyokawa's Nobunaga. Very cunning and very ruthless. Perhaps other depictions of Nobunaga have been more romantic or boyish, I dunno. But I thought this one worked. I thought it perfectly fit the phrase "Nobunaga's ambition" to a tee.

I'll post more on this next time, but my overall satisfaction with the show is mid-high. I regret that I've almost caught up with everybody -- because now it means I have to join you in playing the painful Waiting Game each week! lol The game wouldn't be painful if the show weren't good, so I hope that gives you a sense of where I'll be heading next time when I post about some of my thoughts on specific episodes and scenes. (I'll try to keep it more focused on newer stuff, too, since you've all discussed the older stuff already.)

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Post by yanie » Apr 8th, '11, 07:56

SuiginChou wrote:As you can see, Ieyasu was an Oda clan hostage for most of his boyhood. From age 6 until 15, he went from home to home, always a political hostage of the Oda. He actually fought against the Oda in his early manhood but (for political reasons) changed sides and became an ally of the Oda -- which he remained for the rest of Oda Nobunaga's days. Instead of thinking that they were showing Ieyasu as a vassal, you should think that they were showing him as a closely-allied general who's as good as a fellow kinsman. Nobunaga would have personally known Ieyasu (by name and by face) before he'd ever met half of his other vassals. He and Ieyasu, you could say, "go way back." Doesn't mean they were the best of friends. But they had a very mutually beneficial relationship against Takeda Shingen: and I think our story opens at around this time, so it would make sense that we see Ieyasu wining and dining with the Oda clan.
Thank you!! This is quite an eye-opener!^^ But I do like it that they make Ieyasu closer to Nobunaga in this version, because I like that Ieyasu gets to interact with the little princess^^

Really too bad they didn't show any ninja-s saving Ieyasu during the Honnoji incident. I read that Hattori Hanzo, the famous Iga ninja, and his men were the ones who guarded Ieyasu back safely after Nobunaga was killed. If I'm not mistaken, Ieyasu is well-acquainted with the Iga and Koga ninjas, in fact Ieyasu's first concubine, Lady Saigo (Hidetada's mother) is the daughter of a ninja. I wish they would show those ninja-s in this adaptation XD

Then there's one of my favorite actors, Kitaoji Kinya, who is supposed to be playing an Ieyasu in his 30s (and who would have just turned 40 in Episode 10) and yet he looks like he's already a grandfather of 60!
It IS hard to imagine Kitaoji Ieyasu is suppose to be younger than Etsushi Nobunaga and Kishitani Hideyoshi, lol. But I think Kitaoji Kinya would make a perfect Ieyasu in his later years, so I choose to overlook this XD

Toyokawa portrays Nobunaga very much like another figure who he bears a striking resemblance to (or at least, according to Koei's Dynasty Warriors games he does, hahaha) -- Cao Cao of the Warring States period in ancient China.
Haha, thank you! Now I know why Etsushi Nobunaga looks so familiar XD I still don't get why NHK didn't shave Etsushi's head for Nobunaga's role. I thought daimyo-s suppose to shave their heads?

Perhaps other depictions of Nobunaga have been more romantic or boyish, I dunno. But I thought this one worked. I thought it perfectly fit the phrase "Nobunaga's ambition" to a tee.
Nope. Actually Etsushi's Nobunaga is the kindest, gentlest, softest one. That's why I'm not fond of his portrayal. You should see Tachi Hiroshi's Nobunaga in Komyo ga Tsuji :D To me, Nobunaga is someone who is difficult to read... his attitude is a mystery that makes one wonders "is his intention good? or bad? which? I can't figure it out". Sorimachi Takashi acted Nobunaga just that. Sorimachi Nobunaga remains my alltime favorite. Tachi Hiroshi also acted Nobunaga that way, just that he became too violent in the end. (I would also like to mention that Kimura Takuya acted the young Nobunaga coincidentally very much similar with Tachi Hiroshi's portrayal, that I can totally linked the 2 portrayals into 1 character.)

While Etsushi's Nobunaga is too much of a shoujo manga character. Fierce in the outside, lonely in the inside, and that lonely-kind side of him was shown too much, very easy to read.

Of course, I do not deny that there are always possibilities that the REAL Nobunaga is indeed like how Etsushi portrayed him.

I guess it's just a matter of preferences^^ My first Nobunaga was Sorimachi, so I immediately fixed him as a standard.

Well, anyway, I just would like to say... I can't wait until this show focuses alot more on the Tokugawa clan!!^o^
The Tokugawa family internal conflicts, and their vassals conflicts are my favorite stories (or, histories XD) !

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Post by bmwracer » Apr 9th, '11, 21:38

Image << That kimono is fabulous. :thumright:

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Post by yanie » Apr 11th, '11, 03:11

Questions related to Tokugawa:
(sorry if it's long-winded)

The fact that Ieyasu chosen Hidetada, his 3rd son, over Hideyasu, 2nd son, as the heir, had always been a mystery for me, recalling that historical facts says Hidetada performed bad leadership during the Sekigahara battle, he doesn't have good reputation as a warrior, etc. While Hideyasu was more superior in battles. "AOI ~ Tokugawa Sandai" resolved it that Hidetada is closer to the vassals, Ieyasu thinks it's important to have loyal vassals as shogun. But I feel there's suppose to be stronger reason.

Another thing makes me wonder... in AOI, Hidetada's childhood name is Chomaru. While in GOU, it's Takechiyo. I wonder which one is true.

Currently, I'm reading a novel that's half documentary (mentions the source of what was written) and half fiction. It says that apparently Ieyasu always doubted that Ogimaru (Hideyasu) was really his son. That's why he never gave the "Takechiyo" name to the 2nd son, even after the death of his 1st son, Nobuyasu. ("Takechiyo" is childhood name given to the heir in Matsudaira/Tokugawa family. Nobuyasu, his 1st son's childhood name was also Takechiyo.) Hideyasu's mother, Oman, was Ieyasu's wife, Tsukiyama-dono's maid and Ieyasu only slept with her once. Plus, Ieyasu felt that Hideyasu doesn't look like him at all. That's also why Ieyasu easily sent Hideyasu to be Hideyoshi's adopted son (hostage, really), and then later sent him to be adopted to the Yuki family.
When Hidetada was born, he was given the name "Chomaru", but a few years later, Ieyasu decided that he should be the heir so he changed his name to "Takechiyo".

This have pretty much answered my questions regarding the heir selection. But my question is... does the fact that Ieyasu doubted Hideyasu(Ogimaru) as his son, has been mentioned in the historical records or is this just a work of fiction?

In GOU novel, I forgot how it went, I only remember I read that when Ieyasu decided for Hidetada to be the 2nd shogun, Hidetada heavily protested and suggested for Ieyasu to choose his older brother, Hideyasu, instead to be the 2nd shogun. IIRC, Hidetada respects Hideyasu very much in GOU(novel) version.

Another question regarding Tokugawa vassals. Were Honda Tadakatsu (one of the Four Guardians) and Honda Masanobu related at all?? I thought they were father and son, because in AOI, I remember Tadakatsu was more active during Ieyasu's reign and Masanobu was active during Hidetada's reign. But then checking out wiki pages, there's not a trace of fact that states they are family related. Are?

I'm glad Honda Masanobu will be acted by Kusakari Masao in GOU. He's a familiar face for me. So far, Honda Tadakatsu and Sakai Tadatsugu's actors are not familiar to me. I wonder who will be Okubo Tadachika, Hidetada's most loyal vassal (at least in AOI he was^^).

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Post by SuiginChou » Apr 11th, '11, 03:40

Can't answer any of those questions but they're good questions. I dunno: I guess we'll just have to wait and find out to see what the Gou version's story will be. As for what really happened historically, I have no idea whether it's true or whether it's just a folktale that Ieyasu doubted he was really the father of his second son. Wikipedia doesn't have much to say: the authors of the Yuuki Hideyasu article basically voice their own puzzlement with:
Wikipedia wrote:The young Ogimaru was, for some reason, disliked by his father Ieyasu.
Remember, though: Ieyasu supposedly cared about his first son and wanted him to succeed him, yet he had that same son commit seppuku rather than defy Oda Nobunaga (which would have amounted to an act of war). It's possible that he was in a similar position with Ogimaru's becoming Hideyoshi's adopted son: what Caesar wants, Caesar gets. And once he'd handed Ogimaru over to Hideyoshi, naturally he would have begun the grooming process for his third son to succeed him. It wouldn't have made much sense to take Ogimaru (then Hideyasu) back in 1589 and have him resume his role as the Tokugawa heir. Politically, I mean. Sentimentally it might have, but politically Ogimaru/Hideyasu would have been as good as gone once he was given up to Hideyoshi, I suppose. And that might explain why he moved on to the next family (the Yuuki) rather than returning home to the Matsudaira clan.

But like I said: I've got no idea. :unsure:

Was meaning to post my thoughts on the latest episodes (8-12) this weekend but I got busy. Maybe later some time this week. In brief, I'll say that 12 was good.
  • I was a little disappointed to see that they did bring in a child actor for Hidetada after we'd discussed how/why they didn't do the same for Gou. Having Hidetada be portrayed by a little boy at the same time Ueno Juri is playing Gou makes it visually seem like Gou is going to marry someone who's 10-15 years younger than herself. Then again, she is actually 6 calendar years older than her husband, so perhaps it's not too too bad. ^^; But ... Episode 12's ending scene makes it seem like she's already being carted off to be married to him. So, uh .......... maybe I do have reason to be concerned. ^^;;
  • Also: lecherous Hideyoshi is pretty creepy. I am still scratching my head trying to figure out how on Earth Chacha is going to fall madly in love with this man when by all accounts he's the one that drove her mother to suicide and led the military campaign (under Nobunaga's orders) against the Azai and Asakura clans, thereby driving her father to commit seppuku as well. I mean, seriously: he's (historically) got the look of a monkey, he caused both of your parents to end their lives early, and you want to have his baby!? O_o; Half the reason I'm watching the show at this point is the anticipation of seeing just how on Earth this is going to be explained.
On to 13! But before then: a recap of thoughts on the more recent episodes. :) Next time!

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Post by yanie » Apr 11th, '11, 04:11

Thank you for your replies!^^
SuiginChou wrote:And once he'd handed Ogimaru over to Hideyoshi, naturally he would have begun the grooming process for his third son to succeed him. It wouldn't have made much sense to take Ogimaru (then Hideyasu) back in 1589 and have him resume his role as the Tokugawa heir. Politically, I mean. Sentimentally it might have, but politically Ogimaru/Hideyasu would have been as good as gone once he was given up to Hideyoshi, I suppose. And that might explain why he moved on to the next family (the Yuuki) rather than returning home to the Matsudaira clan.
Hidetada was also sent to be Hideyoshi's hostage in 1591. How is it different?

SuiginChou wrote:
  • I was a little disappointed to see that they did bring in a child actor for Hidetada after we'd discussed how/why they didn't do the same for Gou. Having Hidetada be portrayed by a little boy at the same time Ueno Juri is playing Gou makes it visually seem like Gou is going to marry someone who's 10-15 years younger than herself. Then again, she is actually 6 calendar years older than her husband, so perhaps it's not too too bad. ^^; But ... Episode 12's ending scene makes it seem like she's already being carted off to be married to him. So, uh .......... maybe I do have reason to be concerned. ^^;;
LOL, do you really want to see a 28 years old adult to act a 4 yrs old toddler?? 4 years old Chacha was also acted by a child actress in Ep1.

But if that's your problem, don't worry, coz Mukai Osamu is confirmed to play the 12 years old Hidetada in Ep22. For me, it is a tiny bit of disappointment, bcoz I wished for Gou-Hidetada's first met scene to be portrayed by Ueno Juri and 12 yrs old actor, so I can have this mental image that Gou is actually 6 yrs older than him, even after he turned to Mukai (who is visually older than Juri).
But at the same time, I'm also happy that Mukai will appear earlier, lol. So I won't let this be a problem. I sure hope Mukai's acting is adequate enough to portray a teenage boy in his puberty period, acting difficult and all, and Juri would act as a mature woman, so I can get that feel I wanted^^

In Atsuhime though, I was really having a hard time to not feel awkward to see Matsuda Shota calling Miyazaki Aoi "haha-ue"(mother), lol. They really should cast a 12 years old boy for Shota's character's first appearance XD

SuiginChou wrote:[*]Also: lecherous Hideyoshi is pretty creepy. I am still scratching my head trying to figure out how on Earth Chacha is going to fall madly in love with this man when by all accounts he's the one that drove her mother to suicide and led the military campaign (under Nobunaga's orders) against the Azai and Asakura clans, thereby driving her father to commit seppuku as well.
I'm still half-wishing that GOU's Chacha would be just like the ones in previous adaptations.... full of hatred, even after she become Hideyoshi's concubine XD In other adaptations, she became his concubine, because she was forced to, and sometimes she was even planning a murder plot for Hideyoshi even after the birth of their child, hehe...

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Post by ailuros » Apr 11th, '11, 16:23

For the question - why Ieyasu want Hidetada- 3rd son to be his hair not Hideyasu.-2nd son-

Like your mention above. One of the reasons might be that Hideyasu's mother was ieyasu first wift's maid but Saigō-no-Tsubone - Hidetada's mother was his trust consort. There is an article about her on wikipedia.

Unlike Nobunaga or Hideyoshi, Ieyasu seem really care about people bloodline so he may prefer 3rd son - Hidatada whose his mother have higher status than Hideyasu, whose mother was a maid.


Around a month after Hidetada born, Ieyasu's first wife and his first son were accused of plotting with Takeda to assassinate Nobuanga. Although the evident was weak, a few months later, Ieayasu had his wife killed and ordered his first son sempuku. - and Hidetada become Tokugawa heir.

:blink

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Post by yanie » Apr 17th, '11, 23:56

Thank you for your reply!! Seem like it's agreed that Ieyasu just doesn't like Ogimaru(Hideyasu) much XD


NEW Trailer - Gou ~The 3 Sisters' Romances~
http://www9.nhk.or.jp/go/movie/tatsukonoheya02.html

A preview of the sisters' romances:
- Chacha x Hideyoshi
- Hatsu x Takatsugu
- Gou x Hidekatsu (2nd husband)

Seem like it's a preview of Ep17 - 20, 5 eps full of romances :D

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Post by SuiginChou » Apr 18th, '11, 01:38

Hmm. Should write that post of mine or else just forget about it and move on, lol. Was busy all week and then neglected to write it up this weekend. Anyway ...

Neat preview, yanie. Thoughts:
- lol, what is Hideyoshi holding one-third of the way through? Looks like a gift-wrapped skateboard for Chacha. XD
- Hatsu's future husband bears a striking resemblance to her father! Or at least, I think the two actors look like they have similar faces. No? Maybe it's just me ...
- LOL when they introduce Hidekatsu and either the narrator or Chacha (hard for me to tell) says that he's a bit of a nutter. And then he laughs ... and then Nodam--err, Gou goes for his face with a tiger-claw slap! lol
- why would Hatsu hate guys like her future husband, I wonder? Seems he's left wondering it too ...
- 80% of the way through, EWWWWW, creepy Hideyoshi x Chacha moment! Can't shake the feeling that he's a lecherous old fart. >_< Future kanpaku or not, can't help but to feel sorry for poor Chacha.
- check out Ieyasu with that moustache!
- at the very end when she starts talking about the princesses' "love" (koi), I can't help but to think "LOL" since this video basically showed anything but. It showed us:
o Chacha getting hit on by an old lecher
o Hatsu telling her suitor that she hates men like him
o and Gou claw-slapping Hidekatsu
Some "koi" you've got there, Tatsugo. hahaha

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Post by ailuros » Apr 18th, '11, 04:14

@yanie - thanks for preview!

@SuiginChou - totally agree with you on chacha x hideyoshi.

Feel really bad for chacha :(
If producer going to make Chacha love Hideyoshi,
they should more emphasis on his good characters.

From history book, he could be portrayed like an ambitious man
with a lot of competencies who carried huge weight of
responsibility with leadership and courage. Also, his genuine
caring for commoner distinguished him form
Nobunaga and Ieyasu.

For me (watch till ep 13) he seem like a no-grace dirty old man who
obviously show to everyone that he wanna claim his young little ward.
– Probably, his true character as well

Although I prefer Chacha didn't really love hideyoshi
but become his concubine to revenge for her parents and stepfather.
I also wanna see how producer of this drama will make believe that
chacha love hidayoshi as well.

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Post by yanie » Apr 18th, '11, 04:32

SuiginChou wrote:- lol, what is Hideyoshi holding one-third of the way through? Looks like a gift-wrapped skateboard for Chacha. XD
Haha, it looks like an ironing board, to me :lol

SuiginChou wrote:- Hatsu's future husband bears a striking resemblance to her father! Or at least, I think the two actors look like they have similar faces. No? Maybe it's just me ...
Ahh, now that you mention it. He does look like Nagamasa-sama^^

SuiginChou wrote:- LOL when they introduce Hidekatsu and either the narrator or Chacha (hard for me to tell) says that he's a bit of a nutter.
Ah, I need to rewatch, didn't remember.

SuiginChou wrote:And then he laughs ... and then Nodam--err, Gou goes for his face with a tiger-claw slap! lol
I'm not sure if it was really Hidekatsu, coz there's no such scene in the novel. (of course there are many changes in the drama) But right after the slapping scene, I can hear Hidekatsu saying, "What an interesting girl!" :D

SuiginChou wrote:- why would Hatsu hate guys like her future husband, I wonder? Seems he's left wondering it too ...
Well... if you really want to know... In the novel...
There are 2 things that made Hatsu fall out of love for a bit:

-Kyogoku Takatsugu is Tatsuko's older brother in the novel (in the drama, he's her younger brother). Takatsugu was the one who offered Tatsuko to Hideyoshi to make her as his concubine. Hearing that, Hatsu immediately dislike this "older brother" for "selling" her own sister. Before Hatsu meets him, she always refer to him as "the good-for-nothing older brother".

-As Hatsu met him and fell in love with him. Chacha decided to help Hatsu(without telling Hatsu), by requesting to Hideyoshi and One to arrange marriage between Hatsu and Takatsugu. As Takatsugu accepted it, Hatsu was disappointed coz it seem like Takatsugu accepted the marriage arrangement just becoz it was an order from Hideyoshi.

Hmm... but actually there was no such scene in the novel where Hatsu was yelling at Takatsugu saying "I hate men like you!". So I'm not sure if the scene was caused by either of the reason, or something else. Probably something else XD There are many additional scenes and plots in the drama, anyway^^
SuiginChou wrote:- check out Ieyasu with that moustache!
Wow, I remember a very similar scene in "Komyo ga Tsuji"! (Hideyoshi putting on a robe on Ieyasu) It's exactly when Ieyasu finally become Hideyoshi's brother-in-law, lol! I wonder if there will be a love story between Ieyasu and the 44 years old Asahi-hime, heehee...

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Post by yanie » Apr 18th, '11, 06:16

Ep14 rating is 19.2%!! :cheers:
(thanks to Kazunari-sama? :P or maybe people is more interested when the heroine starts her marriage life)

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Post by yanie » Apr 18th, '11, 07:40

Interesting critics article on GOU's Hideyoshi:

GOU ~Himetachi no Sengoku~ Episode 14
Kishitani Goro's Hideyoshi pierced through the "foolish lord" character

translated by yanie
Episode 14 of GOU titled "Rien seyo"(Divorce) was aired on April 17. This episode tells how Gou and her first husband, Saji Kazunari, got married and then got divorced. Her short marriage life with the first husband was told in one episode, but Hashiba Hideyoshi's wickedness stood out more in this episode.

GOU's Hideyoshi had been criticized as a "Foolish(Ridiculous) Lord" so far. Sen-no-Rikyu (Ishizaka Koji) can see through his secret intentions, One (Otake Shinobu) is always in disbelief with everything he has done, and he always shows disgraceful/shameful behaviours in front of Ishida Mitsunari (Hagiwara Masato). He lacks the basic charms of Hideyoshi that got him chosen by Oda Nobunaga, which are quick-witted and skill in deceiving people. Even if it's a standard procedure, that Toyotomi Hideyoshi is described as the evil one among the Three Great Heroes of Sengoku, like one of his bad side which he shows in the Imjin War and all, but it is very unusual for an adaptation to make him look so bad even before he become the ruler of Japan.

The problem of GOU's Hideyoshi is, he looked like a fool straight from the beginning. He has a wicked intention of wanting to make Ichi and Chacha as his. In this drama, Hideyoshi's mind seem to be only about that. Although he always deny it in public, but every character around him can easily see that intention. And this drama lacks the points of why a sharp and able person like Ishida Mitsunari can be loyal to this Hideyoshi.

However, Hideyoshi in this episode have started to act the way he suppose to be. Hideyoshi forced Gou to separate from her husband, but he used a mean planned scheme. And then he confessed his planned scheme in front of Gou, Chacha, Hatsu, One and Mitsunari. He let Gou to feel angry toward himself, and he seem to be in joy to see Gou getting angry. Apparently this Hideyoshi is a pure evil without any good points left. However we can consider the fact he confessed about his scheme as honesty. It's quite a contrast with the part when he was lying to Gou that the marriage was to stop the war with Oda Nobukatsu.

Maybe we can say that his character of "I'll do what I want", "I'll get what I want" is his evil charms. It is one of the reason why the brutal dictator, Hideyoshi, became the popular "TAIKO-san". In terms of that, we can say that this episode is the turning point of where Hideyoshi started to show his trueself to people around him. The flashy Osaka castle which was the reflection of Hideyoshi's interests and preferences, has just been completed as well in this episode. The more honest Hideyoshi is one of the highlight of the story from now on.

source: http://npn.co.jp/article/detail/29074811/
I'm sorry for the rough translation, pls correct me if I made mistakes.
Not sure of the writer's intention though... maybe he's just trying to say that GOU's Hideyoshi is not that wrong/bad, afterall? XD

ailuros wrote:but Saigō-no-Tsubone - Hidetada's mother was his trust consort. There is an article about her on wikipedia.
Btw, I just read the wiki page on Saigo-no-Tsubone. Wow, she seem to be such a remarkable woman. I've never find/read any other historical figure that did charity activities! She is suppose to be one of the memorable Tokugawa woman.

I wonder if there had been a drama or movie about Saigo-no-Tsubone (Oai-no-kata / Ai)?? Or any adaptation that features her? With her life story (how she had to face jealousy of Ieyasu's wife and his other concubines), I'm surprised there's no drama/movie on her yet. OOKU should really pick this up for another series! Like "Ooku: Prologue" or something, hehe.

I'm very sad that I can't find her either in AOI Tokugawa or GOU-Himetachi :(
She's Gou's mother-in-law... hopefully later, Hidetada talks about her.

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Post by Peggy » Apr 19th, '11, 02:13

When will Ueno stop playing Nodame and become the Princess Gou.?

Just wondering.

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Post by yanie » Apr 19th, '11, 03:14

Peggy wrote:When will Ueno stop playing Nodame and become the Princess Gou.?

Just wondering.
Uhh... can you elaborate more of what you mean with your question? How many eps of the shows have you watched?

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Post by bmwracer » Apr 19th, '11, 03:29

Peggy wrote:When will Ueno stop playing Nodame and become the Princess Gou.?

Just wondering.
She's not playing Nodame... Unfortunately, that's all you're able to see, apparently. :pale:

I guess Juri-chan's most famous/popular role is typecasting her with some people. :(

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Post by Peggy » Apr 19th, '11, 04:57

That is all I am able to see so far. But you must realise that I am not watching with your eyes. Also I am seeing it only on TV with or without subs. My d.l is piling up waiting for a time to watch several episodes at one time.
At first I was able to accept the older actresses playing six plus year children. It was possible to imagine children apearing , especially because Ueno transmitted the Nodame attitude. It was acceptable to my imagination. However, now I want to see some more adult growth. Right now I don't see it. I don't know the episode you are watching but you are ahead of my TV schedule.

Must also realise that your admiration of Ueno is much broader than mine and that does make a great deal of difference I think. We can accept our favourites with a much softer criticism I think.

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Post by yanie » Apr 19th, '11, 05:32

Well, if you want to see a very MATURE Gou, I'm afraid it is still far ahead, probably starting Ep20s, when she turns 18. In the very last episode yesterday, Gou was only 12, according to Sengoku age counting, but 11 years old according to modern counting. I prefer Juri to still keep the childish side of Gou for now.
If you're still watching the episodes where the sisters still have their stepfather and mother, Gou was only 9-10 years old there.

But then again, I don't think Gou is playing Nodame at all, even when she is playing the child Gou. If it looks like Nodame, it can't be helped, because the actress was the same person who acted Nodame (which character IS childish) XD She can't just completely erase that personality, unless she has to play a complete opposite than Nodame's character (like Last Friends), that's when she can perform a completely different character than Nodame. Unless her character in LF still look like Nodame to you, then I have nothing more to say, lol.

I guess, it IS difficult to completely erase people's image of an actor's trademark character. It's like Christopher Reeve and Superman, no matter what other movie he's starring in, we'd only see Superman :D

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Post by 7th-key » Apr 19th, '11, 10:47

yanie wrote: In the very last episode yesterday, Gou was only 12, according to Sengoku age counting, but 11 years old according to modern counting.
Ah, thanx for the info on the age counting system! I was finding the time table on the guide book a bit confusing: I thought they were fuzzy with the year counting in order to make Gou at least a little bit older :roll

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Post by yanie » Apr 19th, '11, 11:03

7th-key wrote:Ah, thanx for the info on the age counting system! I was finding the time table on the guide book a bit confusing: I thought they were fuzzy with the year counting in order to make Gou at least a little bit older :roll
Yeah, I was confused as well, in the beginning XD

The Japanese old counting system is called 数え年(kazoe-doshi): "old manner of reckoning one's age, newborns being considered a year old, with everyone adding one year to their age at New Year's"

So with this "kazoe-doshi" system, a newborn baby is 1 year old. And, they all have the same birthday, which is at New Year's :mrgreen:

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Post by 7th-key » Apr 19th, '11, 11:28

yanie wrote:So with this "kazoe-doshi" system, a newborn baby is 1 year old. And, they all have the same birthday, which is at New Year's :mrgreen:
Thanx again. :)
So it seems it's more about the years that one "witnesses" rather than an aging thing. Even if you were born in Dec 1565, comes New Year you've seen two years: 1565 and 1566.

Very practical for Ieyasu: not having to remember all his kids' different birthdays. hehe.

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Post by bmwracer » Apr 19th, '11, 13:55

yanie wrote:Well, if you want to see a very MATURE Gou, I'm afraid it is still far ahead, probably starting Ep20s, when she turns 18. In the very last episode yesterday, Gou was only 12, according to Sengoku age counting, but 11 years old according to modern counting. I prefer Juri to still keep the childish side of Gou for now.
If you're still watching the episodes where the sisters still have their stepfather and mother, Gou was only 9-10 years old there.
Yup.

The TV broadcast on local TV is only at Episode 7.
But then again, I don't think Gou is playing Nodame at all, even when she is playing the child Gou. If it looks like Nodame, it can't be helped, because the actress was the same person who acted Nodame (which character IS childish) XD She can't just completely erase that personality, unless she has to play a complete opposite than Nodame's character (like Last Friends), that's when she can perform a completely different character than Nodame. Unless her character in LF still look like Nodame to you, then I have nothing more to say, lol.

I guess, it IS difficult to completely erase people's image of an actor's trademark character. It's like Christopher Reeve and Superman, no matter what other movie he's starring in, we'd only see Superman :D
Exactly... As I said, typecasting.

In some ways, I'd have to say it's partly the viewer's fault as well: you have to look at the actor's performance outside of the box... In this case, the Nodame box. :sweat:

And as I pointed out in the J-D thread, no one seems to be complaining about 68-year old Kitaoji Kinya playing a 30/40-year old Tokugawa Ieyasu... :P

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Post by yanie » Apr 19th, '11, 14:39

bmwracer wrote:And as I pointed out in the J-D thread, no one seems to be complaining about 68-year old Kitaoji Kinya playing a 30/40-year old Tokugawa Ieyasu... :P
Uso!! :blink I didn't know he's that old, I thought he's in his early 60s XD
And yet, the 46 years old Kishitani Hideyoshi is suppose to be 5 years older than Kitaoji Ieyasu :mrgreen: It can only happen in taiga dramas, lol.

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Post by SuiginChou » Apr 19th, '11, 14:46

bmwracer wrote:And as I pointed out in the J-D thread, no one seems to be complaining about 68-year old Kitaoji Kinya playing a 30/40-year old Tokugawa Ieyasu... :P
Ahem:
SuiginChou wrote:Then there's one of my favorite actors, Kitaoji Kinya, who is supposed to be playing an Ieyasu in his 30s (and who would have just turned 40 in Episode 10) and yet he looks like he's already a grandfather of 60!
Believe me: Juri isn't the only one getting the stern eye treatment. lol I love some of these actors, but quite frankly it isn't appropriate for them to be playing these sorts of characters. We can argue about it being an NHK tradition and whether that tradition should stay or should go until we're blue in the face, but in the end the fact remains that for most Western viewers this is a very jarring experience. And this is something which goes back to the very roots of European theater: while you may have had young boys playing women, you never had old men playing young men. Old men play older characters, younger men play younger ones. This is why most Shakespearean actors are discovered in their roles as Hamlet or Othello and eventually grow into playing Macbeth, King Lear, and Oberon.

And I'm not even certain it's necessarily a West-meets-East phenomenon. For all I know Japanese theater traditionally follows a similar convention and it's just these taiga dramas which are guilty of casting jijis as young men.

I haven't seen Ueno Juri in other roles besides Nodame and Gou, so for me it's not yet possible to tell whether many of Nodame's features -- her intonation, her demeanor, her facial expressions -- are just part of who Ueno Juri is as a person or whether they were created on stage for the Nodame character and are being carried over into child-Gou. However, having heard her talk in some interviews on Youtube, it does seem like her speech impediment (?, if one wants to call her unique way of speaking that) is her natural voice: see here. Perhaps that's what's distracting for many: the fact that she does not talk like any other Japanese woman. So it's natural for fans who first saw her in Nodame to have attributed that voice as a play-voice for the Nodame character and to now hear it again in Gou and think, "Oh wow, she's playing Nodame again." And whether they can get past that or not, only time will tell.

But it's not limited to just the sound of her voice: a lot of her behavior has also been reminiscent of Nodame's. I can only hope that it's because she's being told to portray a small child and, since Nodame was a child-like person to begin with, it's only natural that Juri's child-Gou would seem so similar to her Nodame.

Anyway, for me, it hasn't been completely ruinous -- i.e. I haven't felt like dropping the series! I've been enjoying it so far! -- but it has been distracting and I genuinely sympathize with those who are saying that Juri's performance is making the show somewhat unbearable for them. Like you said before: if they don't like it, they don't have to watch it. But I think some sympathy is appropriate: you only get a new NHK taiga drama once every calendar year, so surely it must be disappointing to have to sit out for a year just because one main actor is ruining things for you. (Same thing happened to me before with 2009's, so I really can understand how frustrated some must be.)

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Post by bmwracer » Apr 19th, '11, 14:50

yanie wrote:
bmwracer wrote:And as I pointed out in the J-D thread, no one seems to be complaining about 68-year old Kitaoji Kinya playing a 30/40-year old Tokugawa Ieyasu... :P
Uso!! :blink I didn't know he's that old, I thought he's in his early 60s XD
And yet, the 46 years old Kishitani Hideyoshi is suppose to be 5 years older than Kitaoji Ieyasu :mrgreen: It can only happen in taiga dramas, lol.
Not just Taigas, but any historical drama, I think... And not only in Japan. :)

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Post by SuiginChou » Apr 19th, '11, 14:57

But then where else? Because pretty much every country I can think of does age-matching -- and so, too, does Japanese cinema. (e.g. in films like Okuribito or Water Boys or Kwaidan or
  • , you have old people playing old people, middle-aged people playing middle-aged people, and young teen talent scouted for the roles of teenagers and adolescents)

    Heck, even in regular Japanese dramas like Hero or Karei Naru Ichizoku you have age matching. Kitaoji Kinya played the father in his 50s, not the son in his early 30s. :)

    I have only ever seen this problem of gross age-mismatching in a handful of taiga dramas. And people earlier in this discussion thread even said that this is because it's an NHK tradition, making me think that it is something which is fairly restricted to these programs and not a more universal thing which viewers should be expected to be more tolerant of.

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Post by yanie » Apr 19th, '11, 15:24

LOL. Here we go again with the similar discussion that we've done pages ago :lol
I hope I can still elaborate this well, English is not my native XD

First of all, Chinese/Hongkong/Taiwan wuxia/period TV series does this as well. I've seen a series where they casted actor and actress in their 40s to play the roles of a couple in their 20s. These roles were the main character's parents (before the main character himself appeared).
Tokito Saburo (53 yrs old) as Azai Nagamasa (23 yrs old when he married Ichi, 28 when he died) and Suzuki Honami (44) as Ichi (21-36) reminds me of that series. With this pattern, perhaps the producers felt the need of casting actor and actress that looks much older than the main character to identify them as the main character's parents?

Second of all...
It might be a sore in the eye to see a 68 yrs old playing a 40 years old. But then he'll fit the role when Ieyasu was about to die in 70 years of age, in episode 40s.

The thing with period dramas, the story tells a character's lifetime, and a wide range of age of the characters. If one character have to be acted by different actors suitable for the character's age, the character will lack continuation. When a wuxia series casted a child actor for the character's childhood for more than 10 episode, it's hard for me to see the childhood version and the adult version as the same person, due to many factors, one of them might be because of the lack of the child actor's acting skills.

As much as I'm kind of dissatisfied with the fact that Ueno Juri had to play 7 years old Gou, I can't blame the producers either. I can absolutely understand their choice.

Third of all... screentime... the producers have the obligation to make the lead appear earlier, no? XD

This is just the beginning... I wonder what people would say when Ueno Juri have to play Gou in her 50s at the end of the series? :D

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Post by Peggy » Apr 19th, '11, 15:48

I was really pleased to watch the performances in 'Last Friends' I thought Ueno was totally NOT Nodame. Her demeanour was quite different. I therefore looked forward to a very different part of her talent when the taiga came up. I am hoping for a different presentation as Gou is supposed to become an adult.

I think more than how Ueno appears to me at the momnt, I am much more frustrated with the way the writer has messed about with history. This, however ,I have tried to accept as a fictional tale with real names of real people being used to tell her story.

When I watch Japanese theatre whether drama or film or whatever is being performed, I quite realise it is based on Japanese tradition and culture. That is why the differences are so interesting. I can easily enjoy men playing the female roles in Kabuki.
Around the time of this drama ,we were advancing to the days of The Globe in London and men played the female roles in Shakespeare. Today even ,in a lighter vein we have women playing the 'Principal Boy' and at least two male comedians playing the 'Ugly Sisters' or whomever, in the Christmas Pantomimes in UK.
It must be easier now to have a female playing the role of a child even tho she is many years older. Easier for a girl to be 'girly' and childish I think, but it just gets a little monotonous when you see it week after week as in this taiga on TV. I don't think a 24 year old actor could be believed if they had him play a nine year old boy. It just would not work for me. The casting had to be difficult for this drama.

I have rarely found any of the Asian films and dramas boring. I have watched enough of them to think that I now have the necessary feel for them, to at least be able to criticize here and there. Usually I applaud ,but I can still complain at something if I don't entirely like what I see or hear. I give this latitude to any other member of the audience and I do not then get upset because what they like or dislke is not my opinion.

I enjoy hearing what other people have to say about a production and especially when they come with knowledge about what is behind the way things are done, or why a certain actor appears the way they do.

It's all very interesting, but this is show business...and these are actors...and how they appear to us is usually not who they are in their personal life.I don't have to defend them in any way except for a good performance Therefore I want them to do a good job in front of the camera. then I applaud as the curtain drops. Or not as the case may be. 8)

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Post by P@permoon » Apr 19th, '11, 17:56

Interestingly I can´t compare Ueno Juri to her Nodame Character, because I couldn´t endure to watch more than 5 minutes of that overdone slapstick. What bothers me in Gou is simply that we have 3 main characters who are not appearing as the persons they are supposed to be. Age issue aside. These three girls don´t behave like daughters of a Feudal Lord in the Sengoku Era at all. They don´t talk, they don´t behave and they don´t spent their time like the real Gou, Hatsu and Chacha did. What happened to the lessons young girls received every day or the etiquette? Instead they can undisturbed do what they want and even hang around men.

What we see is the big fictional part of this taiga and for me, it´s also the bad side. Which is a shame, because the setup in the first 5 episodes, especially Honnoji, was great and the best I have seen in a taiga. But the girls attract since episode 2 negative attention in my eyes. For example, whenever Nobunaga was on screen, I just wanted to see Nobunaga interact with others, but absolutely not with Gou. I wish Gou would at least be likeable. But she isn´t and that´s getting problematical if you have to see her the whole time. This taiga is not made for a ensemble like old taiga, it is a idol-vehicle that´s pushing Ueno at you if you like it or not. And if you can´t empathize with Gou, it´s getting frustrating. The child argument will be gone as soon as she is finally an adult, but that doesn´t makes her suddenly change or Ueno´s way of portraying Gou. The same goes for Chacha and Hatsu. They are normal, they don´t have the slightest charm or mannerism of a historical figure. And this is something that won´t change anymore.

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Anachronistic characterizations

Post by Kumakun » Apr 19th, '11, 18:52

To re-hash what I'm certain has been written before, this Taiga drama has not been well received in Japan: one critic wrote that he was expecting Gou to shout "Gyabo!" at any time, and another commented that the princesses reminded him of some moronic girlsfrom Shibuya.

Taiga dramas are typically hagiographies, over-emphasizing the historical character's virtues while glossing over, rationalizing, or omitting entirely their vices. This production, however, seems to have crossed a line in the minds of many Japanese, including the one to whom I'm married. In short, the princesses and some of the other characters act as if they are from a low or lower-middle class, contemporary family.

In what is arguably one of the best Taiga dramas, Aoi Tokugawa Sandai, the role of Gou was magnificently performed by Iwashita Shima, best know for her role in Gokudo no Tsumatachi, (Wives of the Yakuza). It is a know historical fact that the second shogun, Tokugawa Hidetada, was notoriously hen-pecked by Gou. Iwashita excels in this kind of role, and stole every scene in which she appeared as Hidetada's wife. A hard act to follow.

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Re: Anachronistic characterizations

Post by SuiginChou » Apr 19th, '11, 19:59

Kumakun wrote:Taiga dramas are typically hagiographies, over-emphasizing the historical character's virtues while glossing over, rationalizing, or omitting entirely their vices. This production, however, seems to have crossed a line in the minds of many Japanese, including the one to whom I'm married. In short, the princesses and some of the other characters act as if they are from a low or lower-middle class, contemporary family.
I'm torn over this. On the one hand, it's refreshing to see a screenplay which doesn't pay lip service to famous historical figures and which is willing/daring enough to try and portray a more human side of them. These leaders were not gods nor paragons of humanity: some of them were downright brutal and tricky and it's nice to see a script which is willing to admit this uncomfortable fact. On the other hand, historical accuracy is key for this sort of thing to succeed: you can't just willy-nilly write a fanfic in which Japanese aristocratic girls of the 1580s were able to barge in on meetings the male warriors were holding and to then speak their minds. (e.g. when Gou barged in on Hideyoshi and the others when they were trying to decide on a successor for the Oda family, Gou's presence in that scene just felt SO out of place)

But on another hand still, sometimes it's fun to have the slightly fan-fictional take on things. I really enjoyed Episode 8 a lot: and it was the silliest and probably the most historically inaccurate episode yet. (It's doubtful that Shibata Katsuie behaved that way in real life when Ichi and the others arrived. And yet it just so perfectly fit what we were all thinking of the situation!) In that sense, I think Gou has done a fine job of examining the 16th Century through a 21st Century lens. In a way, this does have the nasty side-effect of some historical revisionism (if you want to call it that; or you could just call it a slew of historical inaccuracies), but the trade-off is that Gou becomes a fun history lesson. It's almost as if someone were tutoring you Japanese history of the Sengoku period and were trying to make it fun. What it sacrifices in accuracy, it makes up for in memorability.

So I dunno how much I'd want to fault this TV series for not playing things out historically.
Pros: being honest about not-so-nice rulers, making history memorable
Cons: not an honest depiction of life back then, can make for some frustrating scenes for informed audiences

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Post by Peggy » Apr 19th, '11, 22:34

I agree with papermoon in describing the 'idolic' presentation of Ueno. It does not seem right at all. If this were a proper taiga we would never see Gou in the presence of Nobunaga and being extremely informal to the point of being dpwn right rude. I agree that girls of nobility would be much more cloistered and given continual lessons on behaviour. They were going to be wives and mothers and they would properly be taught how to hehave and be in the background. No matter if they indulged in pillowtalk over court affairs and placement of sons and daughters in the married life., they would not be in any male discussions on battles or who was going to be sent where or any reason about such affairs. Even if a taiga is to be an informal way to show Japanese history to outsiders, it would still be rather a pity to mislead with this type of drama we are seeing now. It needs to be shown that this is mostly fiction and characters sometimes grossly exaggerated.There is nothing wrong with fiction but we usually have taigas adhere more closely to history.
I have had to swivel my thoughts around completely even tho I have only seen seven episodes.
It reminds me of the old Hollywood days when the studios would carefully choose the film for the starlet they wanted to promote. Then that actress would be coached and placed in every scene where possible. It ended up with certain actors being cast in the same way during their careeer. It took a lot of courage to go against the studios. Only a few got away with it and retained their careers, and most of them were such good actors that they could not be stifled. I don't see this happening in the Asian community. At least not the ladies.

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Re: Anachronistic characterizations

Post by bmwracer » Apr 19th, '11, 22:45

SuiginChou wrote:So I dunno how much I'd want to fault this TV series for not playing things out historically.
Pros: being honest about not-so-nice rulers, making history memorable
Cons: not an honest depiction of life back then, can make for some frustrating scenes for informed audiences
Not to beat a dead horse, but as it's been mentioned time and time again, it's a drama, an entertainment, not a documentary.

If people really want to know the actual facts they should go to the library or bookstore....

Maybe there should be a disclaimer at the beginning of each episode. :sweat:

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Post by Peggy » Apr 19th, '11, 22:55

I don't see this discussion as a dead horse. We are watching a TV drama and the writer is playing around with strong history. I am still watching the episodes but I can certainly state my opinions about the presentation of history and even be disappointed with how some of the roles are being played. Being aware of some of the actual facts and then watching the modern distortions give food for discussion don't you think.

It is still a beautifully presented drama. The scenery is wonderful and the costumes truly well done. I am looking forward to possibly seeing Hideyoshi in Kyoto when he was playing the lord to the hilt and becoming a very formal gentleman. Tea ceremonies and playing the lead in Noh plays would be a change from the antics he is going through in the early part of the drama. Maybe they will not show that since this is concentrating on the women.

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Post by SuiginChou » Apr 19th, '11, 23:19

I think they'll have to show more of Hideyoshi since Sen no Soeki has such a prominent role in this drama and ...
Sen no Rikyuu (Soeki)'s seppuku ordered by Hideyoshi is a pretty famous event, I would think.
bmwracer wrote:Not to beat a dead horse, but as it's been mentioned time and time again, it's a drama, an entertainment, not a documentary.
But it isn't just any drama. It's not even just any old period drama. It is the period drama: the NHK Taiga drama. And while you're right that the franchise styles itself as historical fiction, not historical fact, I think that it's completely understandable that people may wish to come to these sorts of shows and find Ken Burns waiting for them, not Jerry Bruckheimer or Michael Bay. :) After all, if a particular fight is given a little added flourish than probably happened in real life -- if it plays more like a shounen manga and less like actual human physics -- most people are happy to see such wonderful fight sequences. (So maybe they do want to see Jerry Bruckheimer at the helm? lol) But what they don't want to see are historical anachronisms -- like women talking out of turn in Sengoku-era Japan -- or gross historical deviations -- like (and afaik this has never happened, but ...) having the historical loser actually win a particularly famous military battle and then writing fan fiction from that point onwards. "Historical fiction" for many people approaching a taiga drama does not mean the screenplay writer has free reign to craft characters however he sees fit: they expect the characters to conform to a mold, one shaped in the form of the people who lived in that time period.

Maybe in the end you are right -- perhaps it would be important to have a 「注意!」 at the start of each episode the way they do for sitting far away from your televisions and having the room well-lit for children's cartoon programs. :) ^_-

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Post by bmwracer » Apr 19th, '11, 23:25

Uh, I never said the discussion was a dead horse... I was reiterating the fact that the Taiga is a dramatization of historical facts. :sweat:

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Post by Peggy » Apr 20th, '11, 01:34

I was wondering if we would see the Soeki situation. Now that really could be thought of as fiction...but it really happened and Hideyoshi was mad as a wet hen. It is hard to imagine that a daimyo can actually make another man commit seppuku over such a reason. How do they do that?

I have been wondering if there was a drama which concentrated on the meeting of Nobunaga and Mori Ranmaru. They are mentioned most of the time but I have yet to see what must have been a very eventful and important time in their lives. Ranmaru was a much admired person and maybe still is in the minds of many Japanese. I am watchng the drama Mori Motonari and wonder if this was the same Mori family earlier on. Maybe I will find out as I get into the later episodes. Daimyos and their families led strange lives. Very marginalised in some way but always trying to expand their lands.

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Post by GraceKelly00 » Apr 20th, '11, 01:46

quick question or rather confirmation is Gou's next husband Hidekatsu Hashiba? If so, isn't she again being married to one of her cousin who this time is one of Nobunaga's biological son adopted by Toyotomi Hideyoshi. I wondered what pushed Hideyoshi to commit such a move - politically unsound I would think.

I still can't see Chacha going for Hideyoshi I'm sorry . It makes no sense to me the entire idea she was in love with him. Of all three sisters she has been the one who has been very vocal about carrying the weight of their mother's betrayal of the Oda clan, avenging her father, refusing a new father, starving herself to fight Hideyoshi and swearing to avenge her mother. Not only that but Chacha was given her father's katana by her mother as Hideyoshi's forces were swarming the castle! Now she is suddenly going to fall in love with Hideyoshi. You would have thought she would have taken a stab at Hideyoshi with it (pun intended). I'm sorry but the writer has major character discrepancies if this happens. :blink Instead of trying to give us 3 great romances I'd rather have Gou's detailed romance.

It would make more sense to have Chacha as forced to become Hideyoshi's concubine in order to secure her and her sister's position from hostages to something more stable. Gou's mariage and divorce could have been used as a dramatic device to enforce that idea to Chacha. Instead of having her and Hastu make snowmen and snowballs in the castle :blink

Anyways see you guys next episode, I am sure we will have a lot to talk about.

Lol, I remember being annoyed with Hatsu in the beginning. I knew Gou was playing a 10 year old but Hatsu stuffing herself with candy and pouting the entire time was unbearable. Especially, when she looked like she was in her late teens and the drama made it seem as though there were maximum 2 year difference between Chacha and Hatsu. Then I read one of the post here and I was like "AAAAAAAh that's the age acting thing" lol

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Post by yanie » Apr 20th, '11, 02:51

GraceKelly00 wrote:quick question or rather confirmation is Gou's next husband Hidekatsu Hashiba? If so, isn't she again being married to one of her cousin who this time is one of Nobunaga's biological son adopted by Toyotomi Hideyoshi.
Hidekatsu, Gou's next husband, ...with Hidekatsu, Nobunaga's biological son, are 2 different persons. Actually, there are, at least, 3 persons related to Hideyoshi named Hidekatsu:
1. Hideyoshi's birthson from a concubine (NOT Chacha) in the early years. But died at toddler's age.
2. Nobunaga's 4th birthson, that Hideyoshi adopted.
3. Hideyoshi's older sister's son, that he adopted later as well, and he named him Hidekatsu becoz he was very depressed of the death of Nobunaga's Hidekatsu.

In the very old historical records, there used to be a mistake, that Gou married Hidekatsu, Nobunaga's son. But it had been researched further by historians, and it has been corrected that the Hidekatsu whom Gou married to, was the Hideyoshi's nephew one, based on other findings.

I wonder where did you find info on Gou married to Hidekatsu, Nobunaga's biological son?^^ That's a pretty old record, most historical writing nowadays never mention it anymore.

GraceKelly00 wrote:I wondered what pushed Hideyoshi to commit such a move - politically unsound I would think.
Exactly! I've been trying to find the reason why Hideyoshi arranged Gou and Hidekatsu's marriage, to no avail XD Just as I never find the political reasons of Hatsu and Kyogoku Takatsugu's marriage arrangement.

I thought Hideyoshi would separate Gou from Saji Kazunari, because he thought Gou would still be useful as a political tool later. But noticing her 2nd marriage is not related to politics, I'm quite puzzled with this Hideyoshi's move.

While... Tabuchi Kumiko, write this in the novel (and later, in the taiga drama as well), this way.
Gou and Hidekatsu simply fell in love with each other. So, Hideyoshi was trying to be the good guy. Just as Hatsu and Kyogoku Takatsugu, they fell in love, and Chacha requested Hideyoshi to arrange their marriage.
Perhaps Tabuchi wrote it this way, because there were never a reason written in the records.
GraceKelly00 wrote:I still can't see Chacha going for Hideyoshi I'm sorry . It makes no sense to me the entire idea she was in love with him. Of all three sisters she has been the one who has been very vocal about carrying the weight of their mother's betrayal of the Oda clan, avenging her father, refusing a new father, starving herself to fight Hideyoshi and swearing to avenge her mother.
I regretfully have to say, in Tabuchi Kumiko's novel:
the sudden change of Chacha's heart was poorly written. Without really good reasons, she just suddenly start to care and think of Hideyoshi. I dunno, or is it possible to suddenly love someone you used to hate to the core, before??

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Post by Peggy » Apr 20th, '11, 02:57

Just my guess since I have yet to see the episode. I don't think Chacha would fall in love with Hideyoshi. I don't think she would have much say in the matter if he decided to make her his concubine for whatever reason. Despite this being the story of the women in the Warring States, they are very much background people in their real situations. They would be told what to do and where to go and I very much doubt they could really rebel. Just my thoughts. Even highranked women were chattels in those days. It would be truly wonderful if they liked and loved the husband chosen for them.

there's that song..'When I'm not with the one I love. I'll love the one I'm with.' the only thing to do in those days if they wanted a peaceful life.

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Post by yanie » Apr 20th, '11, 03:42

P@permoon wrote:They don´t talk, they don´t behave and they don´t spent their time like the real Gou, Hatsu and Chacha did. What happened to the lessons young girls received every day or the etiquette? Instead they can undisturbed do what they want and even hang around men.
Hmm, I wonder... If the writer make the princesses have to take etiquette lessons everyday, without knowing what's going on outside, they cannot hang around men, may not talk abt politic-related matters, and just responds submissively to whatever they are told to do... Won't it make a boring story? XD

I was disappointed with Ep4 - 7, esp. Gou-Akechi's scene, was just too much. But Ep8 onwards were very good so far. They don't push Gou's existence anymore, and all the plots works.

Tabuchi Kumiko, the writer of this taiga drama, had once say in an interview,
"When I write historical stories, there's one thing I have to pay attention to. The fact that the women that time did anything the men says, including political marriages, and they had to go through alot of things. But I can't convey this to the present women, the way as it is. They might not understand. So I mingled the characters' feelings with words that the present women can understand. I'm writing it in the way so the present women can also understand (the Sengoku women)."

And, I think she has done a pretty good job in that.

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Post by bmwracer » Apr 20th, '11, 04:05

yanie wrote:Hmm, I wonder... If the writer make the princesses have to take etiquette lessons everyday, without knowing what's going on outside, they cannot hang around men, may not talk abt politic-related matters, and just responds submissively to whatever they are told to do... Won't it make a boring story? XD
Maybe not boring, but it would be Japanese History 101, not a Taiga drama.

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Post by P@permoon » Apr 20th, '11, 08:51

yanie wrote: Hmm, I wonder... If the writer make the princesses have to take etiquette lessons everyday, without knowing what's going on outside, they cannot hang around men, may not talk abt politic-related matters, and just responds submissively to whatever they are told to do... Won't it make a boring story? XD
Seeing them learning something would have been more interesting than watching the silly quarrellings or random sweets consumings. :lol
They should have just shown the men dealing with political affairs and war on one side, and the isolated life of the woman on the other. Which would mean lesser screentime, but would made the whole story more interesting, because you get to know different characters. Of course was the life of the woman not the most interesting, but that´s (not only japanese) history.

Just, it´s not exactly about showing the lessons, but more about showing them learn how to behave as ladies or actually be ones. The girls appear as if they are only playing around, instead of getting proper education. Usually NHK taiga drama are paying a lot of attention to teach the actors how to talk and walk properly, and that´s what I´m missing by watching the three Azai sisters in here. And that is something that is in the task of being an actor. You can´t just play a historical character like you would play a modern girl, but that´s what these 3 are doing. In contrast, other actors here are appearing like historical figures.
yanie wrote:And, I think she has done a pretty good job in that.
I know what you mean and for someone who only wants to see romance and family tragedy (from the women POV) it might work, but this is exactly what takes away from Gou being a good and entertaining taiga drama for a broad audience. For me, starting from episode 7, Gou became like a soap opera and ended being a taiga drama. And that even though it started so great, with all the little historical details and good resarch they showed in the first episodes, that nobody seemed to care about before.
Peggy wrote: I have been wondering if there was a drama which concentrated on the meeting of Nobunaga and Mori Ranmaru. They are mentioned most of the time but I have yet to see what must have been a very eventful and important time in their lives. Ranmaru was a much admired person and maybe still is in the minds of many Japanese. I am watchng the drama Mori Motonari and wonder if this was the same Mori family earlier on. Maybe I will find out as I get into the later episodes. Daimyos and their families led strange lives. Very marginalised in some way but always trying to expand their lands.
No, they are two different clans. Mori Motonari was from the western Môri a clan Nobunaga combated. Ranmaru´s clan were from Mino and descendents of Genji. I would love to see a movie or tv series telling Nobunaga and Ranmaru´s story (with Gou´s cast!!!). Their whole life was truly eventful, but they were also very interesting personalities.

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Post by yanie » Apr 20th, '11, 11:16

Kumakun wrote:In what is arguably one of the best Taiga dramas, Aoi Tokugawa Sandai, the role of Gou was magnificently performed by Iwashita Shima, best know for her role in Gokudo no Tsumatachi, (Wives of the Yakuza). It is a know historical fact that the second shogun, Tokugawa Hidetada, was notoriously hen-pecked by Gou. Iwashita excels in this kind of role, and stole every scene in which she appeared as Hidetada's wife. A hard act to follow.
It's really unfair to compare Iwashita Shima's portrayal of Gou with Ueno Juri's, at this point. First of all, Iwashita Shima didn't have to play the 7 years old Gou. Second of all, the taiga drama haven't reach the part where Gou is married to Hidetada, we haven't seen Ueno Juri acting as Hidetada's wife yet.

As much as I love Iwashita Shima's portrayal as Gou, though. I had to cringe when the 53 yrs old Nishida Toshiyuki and 59 yrs old Iwashita had to act out a romantic scene between 19 years old Hidetada and 25 yrs old Ogou XD Something is really out of place. Same thing everytime I see the 59 yrs old had to act pregnant and give birth. Something's just not right abt that :D "AOI Tokugawa" stays my all-time fav taiga drama, but I think it has similar problems with GOU. Casting too much older cast to play younger roles XD

P@permoon wrote:They should have just shown the men dealing with political affairs and war on one side, and the isolated life of the woman on the other.
I don't think all Sengoku women are that isolated, some of them were involved in the political matters. Ichi did send Nobunaga a warning about the Azai-Asakura attack. (which this taiga drama deviated, quite disappointed abt that) Nobunaga's wife, Nohime, was also suspected as a spy. Tokugawa Ieyasu asked his concubine, Saigo-no-Tsubone's advices regarding political matters.

Of course, a little princess shouldn't suddenly barge in a meeting as important as the Kiyosu one and suddenly interfere. But we can't say either, that they're absolutely isolated. Although the historical records states the facts that they did everything the men told them to do in the end, but the records didn't mention either that they absolutely didn't voice a little protest or the likes.

Many Japanese people have the image of Gou as a scary wife, because Tokugawa Hidetada was well-known as the henpecked husband in the history. So there's really nothing wrong on making Gou's character as a girl who speaks up her mind since the beginning.

P@permoon wrote:Just, it´s not exactly about showing the lessons, but more about showing them learn how to behave as ladies or actually be ones.
I see what you mean. Of course, it would be interesting to see a scene or two of that. But jmo, different than Atsuhime, they are not countryside girls learning to be princesses. They are already princesses. Showing them learning how to behave as ladies, won't be significant to the story. GOU is about the princesses' hardships as the political tools. There's no point of showing them having etiquette lessons all the time. JMHO, though^^

P@permoon wrote:The girls appear as if they are only playing around, instead of getting proper education.
They're not always playing around :scratch: Ichi taught them horse-riding, incense burning, embroidery, in different episodes. And I think how Shibata Katsuie, as a father, taught Gou not to be careless, or else the stable boy's life would've been taken away, was an excellent move.

P@permoon wrote:You can´t just play a historical character like you would play a modern girl, but that´s what these 3 are doing. In contrast, other actors here are appearing like historical figures.
Not sure of your "modern girl" context, but if it's about speaking up their mind, I've mentioned it above.

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Post by GraceKelly00 » Apr 21st, '11, 00:22

A possible explanation for Hideyoshi making Gou marry his adopted son would be succession.
Had Hideyoshi a clear heir at that time? I know there was his half-brother and his nephew Hidetsugu. Perhaps Toyotomi planned in case he had no biological male heir: his nephew would have been a potential successor and marrying him off to the niece of Oda Nobunaga would have increased the credibility, status as well as the power alliances available to Hideyoshi and the Toyotomi clan.

One thing I don't get though in the drama: I watched the RAW of the last episode. Does Hideyoshi tells Gou he is her father (least I think that's what he says before she throws snowballs his way)? If yes, how does he pull off the Chacha concubine move? He moves from father to husband in a swift motion?

Yes, I agree with Peggy that Chacha would not have much choice anyways and that's what drive me nuts with her part in this drama. With all the angst built up since episode 2 or 3 with Chacha all of a sudden she becomes meek and willing for Hideyoshi. There is no consistency.

As for Hatsu's marriage, it might have been love but it certainly did not hurt that her future husband was a brother in law of Hideyoshi and I assume a powerful warlord. If Takatsugu married Hatsu, it could mean for Hideyoshi one more ally he could count on? And if Takatsugu ever had ambitions on the realm it would easier to keep tabs on him and keep him in check.

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Post by Kumakun » Apr 21st, '11, 01:03

As much as I love Iwashita Shima's portrayal as Gou, though. I had to cringe when the 53 yrs old Nishida Toshiyuki and 59 yrs old Iwashita had to act out a romantic scene between 19 years old Hidetada and 25 yrs old Ogou
Well, yes. It does require some suspension of disbelief, but both Iwashita and Nishida are consummate actors, and I always have enjoyed their performances, Certainly, I do not want to miss the current Taiga drama, and I'm eager to see how Ueno portrays an older Gou. I've enjoyed many of Ueno Juri's performances - particularlty Swing Girls and the Nodame Cantabile series. Her métier seems to be playing the 変態 -type casting?

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Post by yanie » Apr 21st, '11, 02:21

GraceKelly00 wrote:A possible explanation for Hideyoshi making Gou marry his adopted son would be succession.
Had Hideyoshi a clear heir at that time? I know there was his half-brother and his nephew Hidetsugu. Perhaps Toyotomi planned in case he had no biological male heir: his nephew would have been a potential successor and marrying him off to the niece of Oda Nobunaga would have increased the credibility, status as well as the power alliances available to Hideyoshi and the Toyotomi clan.
Hmm... that's a good theory. Gou and Hidekatsu's marriage time is unclear though. Some predicted it's 1586 (when Hidekatsu became Hideyoshi's adopted son), but in this year it was already decided Hidetsugu would be successor, he should've arrange Gou to marry him, instead.
Some predicted it's 1592 (the taiga drama will follow this one), when Hideyoshi and Chacha's first son just died, before their 2nd son was born. And Hidetsugu's position as successor was not certain anymore at this time, due to his misbehaviours and the birth of Hideyoshi's first son.

GraceKelly00 wrote:One thing I don't get though in the drama: I watched the RAW of the last episode. Does Hideyoshi tells Gou he is her father (least I think that's what he says before she throws snowballs his way)? If yes, how does he pull off the Chacha concubine move? He moves from father to husband in a swift motion?
Of course, in his heart, he's a father to Gou, but a lover to Chacha :mrgreen: Basically, I think he doesn't care whether it's father or not, he just wanted to make it clear that the girls are now members of the Hashiba clan.

GraceKelly00 wrote:Yes, I agree with Peggy that Chacha would not have much choice anyways and that's what drive me nuts with her part in this drama. With all the angst built up since episode 2 or 3 with Chacha all of a sudden she becomes meek and willing for Hideyoshi. There is no consistency.
Let's wait until Ep20-21. THEN, we can complain, if it doesn't go as we wish. Trailers and previews can be misleading, sometimes. Having high hopes here that Tabuchi Kumiko would correct this part in the TV drama.

GraceKelly00 wrote:As for Hatsu's marriage, it might have been love but it certainly did not hurt that her future husband was a brother in law of Hideyoshi and I assume a powerful warlord. If Takatsugu married Hatsu, it could mean for Hideyoshi one more ally he could count on? And if Takatsugu ever had ambitions on the realm it would easier to keep tabs on him and keep him in check.
Good thought. Heheh... to think, Takatsugu finally took Tokugawa's side XD

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Post by bmwracer » Apr 21st, '11, 03:27

Kumakun wrote:I've enjoyed many of Ueno Juri's performances - particularlty Swing Girls and the Nodame Cantabile series. Her métier seems to be playing the 変態 -type casting?
Was she hentai in Swing Girls? :scratch:

I think not... Nor was she in Last Friends, Rainbow Song, or Summer Time Machine Blues... To name a few. :)

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Post by Peggy » Apr 21st, '11, 03:43

Ueno was entirely amazing in Last Friends. I thought she showed a side of her talent that had never been given to us before.
Last edited by Peggy on Apr 21st, '11, 18:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by yanie » Apr 21st, '11, 08:35

I found a blog provides news of Shiga prefecture(Gou's birthplace) in English, it has English articles on Gou, the NHK taiga drama: http://shiga-ken.com/blog/category/nagahama/go/

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Post by 7th-key » Apr 21st, '11, 11:40

Peggy wrote:Ueno was entirely amazing in Last Friends. I thought she showed a side of her talent that had never been given to us before.
She's also a complete different person in Naoko and Tsubasa no oreta tenshitachi.

I was hoping for a script that would give her character that level of earnest, but that's not the overall feeling I'm getting from this Taiga. Fact is that I'm NOT seeing Juri-chan acting Gou in any manner that is out of place in relation to this story and the other characters.
On the other hand, if you'd drop some of these characterizations in AOI ~ Tokugawa Sandai they might get looked at like martians. ;)

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Post by yanie » Apr 21st, '11, 13:40

Just watched Ep14 with subs.

Sasuga Liubeibei!! :salut: I love your explanatory note on who died in the Komaki-Nagakute battle. これからも宜しくね!

After watching the subs, Ep14 got even better for me^^ Love the whole conflicts. Definitely the best episode, so far.

Ep14 comments:
-So, let me get this straight... the outcome of Komaki-Nagakute battle, Nobukatsu-Ieyasu were actually winning the battle, but (the idiot) Nobukatsu was taken with saru's bait?? So Hideyoshi indirectly won the battle by the cunning peace treaty? With the treaty, he could do whatever he want to Nobukatsu and Saji Kazunari now? How is that?

-The way Kuroda Kanbei sit in front of Nobukatsu is... different....
Did he have problems with his legs? Or is that just the way one sits in front of an enemy? XD

-Ieyasu look like he really didn't care with the outcome of the battle^^

-Hatsu's letter was touching :cry: I can finally like her! :lol

-Hideyoshi-One's room talk... sounds like Hideyoshi finally realized he likes Gou? XD

-What did Chacha mean with, whenever she see One's face she become speechless?
Osaka castle's luxury... how can Hideyoshi can get that rich so fast, only 2 years after Nobunaga's death? Reminds me, that before the Siege of Osaka, Ieyasu was trying to make Chacha and Hideyori (Toyotomi clan) bankrupt by kept giving them temple projects to build. And yet, this plan failed, bcoz turn out the Toyotomi-s have more wealth than Ieyasu expected. When I watch this part in AOI Tokugawa, I was wondering if the Toyotomi-s have some kind of hidden treasure or something? XD

Then, the upcoming movie, "Princess Toyotomi" starring Tsutsumi Shinichi and Ayase Haruka, (a history-mystery movie which is said to be the counterpart of Dan Brown's DaVinci Code) will focus on this hidden national treasure that apparently belong to the Toyotomi clan. Of course, this is fictional. But how cool, if it's really true^^

Quoting what my friend said, "I wonder how Japanese society would be different today if Hideyoshi's supporters didn't lose the Battle of Sekigahara to the forces of Ieyasu Tokugawa. To me, a lot of Japan's cultural baggage can be directly traced back to the Tokugawa Shogunate."

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Post by GraceKelly00 » Apr 21st, '11, 22:31

Episode 14
I also noticed how he sat. Wasn't his leg injured? And Hideyoshi tossing away the letter from his first concubine to read Chacha-sama's letter. Talk about foreshadowing lol
The castle luxury scenes where ridiculous I had to laugh. Do you remember how Gou's main female attendant reacted? You would have thought she never had been in Nobunaga's castle at the beginning of the series. LOL. Not to mention Hideyoshi's golden bed ha ha ha so cheesy lol

Also looking forward to how they portray Hideyoshi's ruthlessness as he becomes Kanpaku and kills off the entire family of Hidestugu including the 15 year old bride to be (who has never seen her husband Hidestugu in the first place) and when he asks the tea master to commit seppukku. Wonder how they will balance this...perhaps with Gou growing closer to the Tokugawa side and deciding that the Tokugawa will continue her uncle's dream? or mayche Chacha-sama increasingly aware of the negative feelings of the vassals towards Hideyoshi and his heir? I wonder which event will push Gou in that direction as well as looking forward to Gou giving her husband her uncle's seal.

Somehow I don't think we will see Gou as hen pecking her husband (on political matters anyway). I think it might be more portrayed as an equal partnership - I'm just basing this guess on the few passages of the book I read by Tabuchi Kimiko. I would be more interested to see it played out that way.

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