What you think about people selling fansubs for profit?

fahsum · Post by **fahsum** » Nov 25th, '04, 11:49

I suspect someone selling fansubs on eBay for a rip-off price and I sorta felt angry. What is your view on this?

My proof for suspicion: This person may be selling stuff in DVD format (which leads people to believe that item is legal factory-seal stuff) but the giveaway factor is that many of the titles being sold are not commercially available with English subtitles. Seller even sells Prince's First Love episodes 1-6 in DVD format... which correlates with the episodes of Prince's First Love being released here.

If you're gonna sell fansubs, sell at a reasonable price.

example

Kenaressa · Post by **Kenaressa** » Nov 25th, '04, 12:09

I can see selling them for the price of the media and shipping, covering your costs is just common sense. But making a profit?!

Kamui6 · Post by **Kamui6** » Nov 25th, '04, 12:25

oh look it's gingertoys2, still selling fansub. That's nothing new for him/her and you can't complain to ebay since they won't do anything about it. Funiest thing is him/her uses screen caps from the series and in some case where it's JTV releases you can see the logo we put in the right hand corner of our releases. People like that piss me off.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 24160&rd=1

not only that, check out he typeset.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 18758&rd=1 <<<-- nice typset but got rid of the logo in the corner then he tags the pics as his/her/

ar-a-mach · Post by **ar-a-mach** » Nov 25th, '04, 12:30

and ppl buying it are stupid

-wWh- · Post by **-wWh-** » Nov 25th, '04, 13:10

i guess there is supply only if there is a demand...so there must be people out there who are willing to buy or else these people won't bother selling.

jlove1831 · Post by **jlove1831** » Nov 25th, '04, 13:15

I hate that. These bastards don't deserve a single penny of what JTV and other fansubbers have done! That pisses me off -_-

Shinigami · Post by **Shinigami** » Nov 25th, '04, 13:24

I've look all sell items from gingertoys2, all Items are from fansubs

He/she steal from another people (fansubs) and make profit from it !!!
arghhh .. it makes me angry

Post by **techie** » Nov 25th, '04, 14:22

I did a search on ebay and didn't find anything or anyone with that nickname.
perhaps ebay found out whats going on

Provided they even deliver in the first case (these greedy nuts), to the clients they rip of, there is little to no chance of them providing a good enough support and service beyond that point.

Not that I believe that much in evolution anymore, since then these kinds of morons would have been weeded out of society to begin with, but the option of natural selection should work in the long run.

Anyhow, there are leachers and lurkers and there are just "crap in the system". The previous ones I can handle, but the later, nahhh. I won't even extend them the courtesy of a comment beyond this point.

okumasama · Post by **okumasama** » Nov 25th, '04, 15:29

The problem is not with the sellers. It is with low IQ-stupid people that buy those and leave a positive feedback even when they paid 20$ for a copy of TV rips. About gingertoys2 he is a first at selling funsubs with 4100 and still going feeback. Can you believe it? 4100 people that got a DVD-R copy and there are happy. They buy the copies, they know there are tricked but they don't feel anything like that and they will go and buy again and again. What can you do with that? And I even found in this forum last day people asking where they can buy DVD-R copies of what's in d-addicts and that pisses me off. There are everywhere. The problem is not the sellers> it is on the buyers. I know very well gingertoys2 is a member in d-addicts and he is around reading those. He won't give a **** and he will just continue to sell the DVDRs.
And then for us, funsubbers, what can we do? Put a big "NOT FOR SALE" all over the screen? He will sell them again or just take the subs and transcribe them. When I tried to copyright the subs everybody started to send me messages that I'm illegal speaking with bad words like I killed their mothers. I guess there are the same people that sell those and wouldn't like somebody to do that. Then what? Encoding in Real Media which makes it much harder for them to convert to DVD? I don't think so, they will just spend more time and they will do it. Giving a 50MB version for each episode? They will even sell that and the stupid people will be happy...
What can we do to protect our work at last? Actors playing in the drama got their money, people that made the drama like script editors, cameramans, studio engineers got their money, the channel got their money, the distributors got their money (since there is nobody to buy the DVD set box at that price and without english subs). And then what? I don't have any problem understanding the dramas, I can watch them without subs. But there are so many people that they just can't. So I spend endless hours of work, which I don't get paid-I just get 10-15 "thank you" or complains, to give everybody the opportunity to watch and understand the drama. Then gingertoys2 earn 20$ (-0.5$ for the cost of the DVD-R and his electricity bills) from my endless hours of work.

How about that for a start:

I spoke with the channels and distributors: they won't care. Get the numbers and the figures: they sell more than 5000 copies of DVD box sets only in one month after the release. Want to know how much they get from those: 90 million yen-almost a million US dollars. gingertoys2 sells about 50-100 copies of these. Do you know how many people of them would buy the original dvd box set? 0? 1? maybe 2? What I want to say is I'm not pissed off with gingertoys2 that sells those, I'm pissed of that sells my work which I don't get paid for. There are only 5 episodes out there from me so I don't have such a problem yet with gingertoys2 editing and selling my works. When the time comes to complete a drama, I just don't know how I could react at the time I will see the drama I translated (from Japanese to Enlgish, not Chinese to English or transcibe) listed in eBay on a couple of cheap DVD-Rs for 20$.
I think that if all d-addicts (except for those selling and won't care) get together we can find a solution to prevent this. The problem is not about tv-rips. Nobody really loose money or does any big work there. The problem is about funsubs. I'm seriously thinking of dropping the subtitling without a solution to this found. I earn nothing from this: just a slight fame and consumes almost all of my free time. I lately just stuck into watching the RAW dramas I bought and I don't give any priority on subtitling. If I'm in mood I'll just do it. I get much more on watching the dramas rather that subtitling them for the sake of gingertoys2 (or any other sellers). And yes for the sake of 500-1000 people that will download it and get very happy about it but if they don't do anything to help me feel comfrtable with releasing the DVDs that I BUY (I spend my own money on the DVDs) and I TRANSLATE (I spend all my free time on that) I won't have the courage on doing that any longer and I guess other funsubbers will follow, feeling cheated and angry about that... except if the other funsubbers theirselves are the people involved on selling those.

Well there might be a solution. Stopping to worry about others and either release those with just Japanese subs for the people that learn Japansese or not release at all and keep them for me.

dmorgan · Post by **dmorgan** » Nov 25th, '04, 15:31

That's bold! Holy crap!
gingertoys2 inspires many angry thoughts!! the folks at jtv work very hard.....

The seller feedback for gingertoys2 suggests that there have been quite a few sales!

RRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!

Cindy · Post by **Cindy** » Nov 25th, '04, 15:45

okumasama - Do you also sell DVDs of your work? If so where can I find them. I'm sure if you opened up an ebay store you can compete with gingerboy and take the profit he would be making for yourself.

Instead of sitting here sulking I think all the fansubbers should get together and form their own shop to sell their fansubbed work so it offers people a way to buy these on dvds or vcds and give back to the fansubbers at the same time. I know I would buy if d-addicts, or jtv, etc etc offered me the option.

Jem · Post by **Jem** » Nov 25th, '04, 15:48

with waiting for enough tasks to finish so i can switch off machine and go sleep, i came upon this rather sensitive topic.

to me, if someone made something, one may do with it however one wishes as that something originates from that someone.

the aspect of tv-rip n fansubbing is rather sensitive, as it involves not only the blood sweat of the fanworkers but also the origin of the said content. when one 'sells' something which one 'borrowed' unknown to the originator, it's like raping another man's wife in the same bed while he is sound asleep, rather distasteful. one may go unscathed for as long as that man remains sound asleep for the many nights one may try raping his wife. everything will change (rather immediately) when the man shld wake up from his sleep amidst the intruder's presense, no one can imagine the outcome that will befall one. taken that the man is not a whimp, i can only wish the wrath be swift n deciding on one, hoping mercy on one's soul, but whatever may happen, one surely deserves it.

my way of handling sellers is rather... different, kinda obvious in my encodes, multiplied by the no. of copies out in the world, so no need to repeat here.

Atomic · Post by **Atomic** » Nov 25th, '04, 15:49

I totally don't agree with selling dramas for profit. Covering shipping and cost of a DVD-R is fine.. making 20 dollars on something he didn't even transcribe is another thing.
He's sold over 4100 dramas just by downloading and converting them into DVDs.

4100x20=$82000!!!! (I'm using 20.00 because I'm including S/H) He's made over 82 grand of other people's fansubs. That's **** insane. That I completely DONT AGREE WITH.

okumasama · Post by **okumasama** » Nov 25th, '04, 16:10

Cindy wrote:okumasama - Do you also sell DVDs of your work? If so where can I find them. I'm sure if you opened up an ebay store you can compete with gingerboy and take the profit he would be making for yourself.

Instead of sitting here sulking I think all the fansubbers should get together and form their own shop to sell their fansubbed work so it offers people a way to buy these on dvds or vcds and give back to the fansubbers at the same time. I know I would buy if d-addicts, or jtv, etc etc offered me the option.

I am inside a labyrinth to find a legal way of selling my works. I don't like to make money illegaly. I prefer to go and work in a factory making money with my own effort rather than selling DVDR copies in eBay. I myself was much into illegal things a few years ago, from just copying CDs to even stealing (and I am quite assemed to say that). Some unfortunate events in my life caused by that drove me into understanding some things and trying to keep some of this world's values intact at least for my self.
Anyway here are some thoughts and ways about selling dramas:

1. To take the rights from the Japanese authors and reprint original DVDs with English subtitles: Almost impossible and not profitable. I'm in contacts with the Japanese embassy of my country (through a company and a lawyer) to get information on that and the first signs are not so bad. Will see in future. I said before that it would propably be quite unprofitable because I don't find any reason that the Japanese authors would give permission to sell the box set at a price lower than theirs (150$). Maybe a better price can be achived on older dramas though that there is no interest in Japan anymore. In that way I get the copyrights so if anybody tries to sell a copy of that I just hunt him down and send him to prison.

2. To sell the original box set along with a CD-R with my subtitles in. Then using a program like DVD-Subber anybody can watch the drama in their computers... I don't brake any copyrights that way BUT... I can't copyright the subtitles without a permission to do so. So anybody can just make a copy of my CD-R and sell it around. In addition people that would like to watch the dramas in their TV DVD player they just can't.

3. To sell a DVD-R copy of the subtitled video along with the original DVD-Box set. In that case you fall into the case that you hold a copy of the original product (which you also have in your possesion). It's absolutely legal (even microsoft advice to do so with their products so you won't damage the original). There is only a slight problem with it: The copy is not an exact copy of the original... Since the DVDs are edited (to fit the English subtitles in) it gets quite uncertain. Maybe there are some copyright law exceptions that could cover you on that, since the edited DVD just carries something that you made by yourself and won't affect the original. But again, can't copyright the subtitles so anybody can start selling them without giving any convern on me.

Now with ways 2 and 3 there is another problem. Which DVD Box set Am I going to sell? The Japanese one costs 150$ that means I won't sell that less than 180-200$. Who would buy that? Everybody would just download a rip of it. The chinese one now costs just $6 BUT... from very "inside" sources I know that it's an absolutely illegal copy. The chinese versions you see around they don't carry any permission and rights from the Japanese authors. Just a few months ago, FujiTV closed down a big company in China doing that and send the responsible members to prison for 20 years. But anyway chinese reprints are everywhere and easy to get and It could end with a final product price less than 30$- enough to beat anybody else selling just the DVD-R copies. The problem is that knowning it is illegal would you take the risk using those re-prints? In the same way don't think that is very hard to make reprints in China with English subtitles in. It is actually very easy. But I won't take any money for my work like that. The final product price in China will be again 6$ except a special arrangement. But that it's quite hard to be achived and again we are talking about something absolutely illegal that somebody has to take responsibility for....
So the best way is way 1. But the hardest of all...

Atomic wrote: 4100x20=$82000!!!! (I'm using 20.00 because I'm including S/H) He's made over 82 grand of other people's fansubs. That's **** insane. That I completely DONT AGREE WITH.

4100 it's his unique positive feeback meaning 4100 different people. But the final number of positive feeback (including same people) its 9200 meaning the double of that.

lolipss · Post by **lolipss** » Nov 25th, '04, 16:21

cursed these people that selling fansubs stuff for profit

Astargatis · Post by **Astargatis** » Nov 25th, '04, 16:39

Personally I have no qualm asking or paying a small fee in compensation for someone's time and effort. If the fansubbers could charge a small fee per download, I'd do it in a second, becasue they deserve it. In the past when things were only on VHS, that was the way, and I never thought twice about doing so.

tailchaser · Post by **tailchaser** » Nov 25th, '04, 16:57

On Ebay, go to "Help" at the top of the page. Then go to "Contact Us" on the left of the page. Here you select "Report a listing policy violation or prohibited (banned) item" in the first field. Then select "Items that may violate a copyright or are counterfeit" (his listing is both). Then select "Report unauthorized copies of CDs, DVDs, tapes, etc."

If all of us with ebay accounts do this to gingertoys and any other slimeballs selling this kind of stuff, it will make it much more difficult for them.

Also, some of us may want to start a throwaway Ebay account based on a free email address based on false info and just bid on all his auctions and then not pay. This would cost him so much money in listing fees that he would eventually have to give up. And if enough of us did it we could put a stop to this slimy rat bastard profiting off of other peoples work.

Copyright infringement doesn't bother me so much when the stuff is given away but when someone tries to profit from it that really gets my goat. Combine that with the fact that he is listing these as actual DVDs!!! and you have a serious case of genuine fraud on your hands.

I think it's time for some vigilante justice. Anyone know anything about this guy? Like what country he's in? His first name or address or anything? The non-paying bidder thing might actually be a good way to get his info.

And Cindy, some of us believe that what he's doing is wrong. If he were raping 12 year old girls with a baseball bat, would you advocate that the rest of us stop complaining and join in on the fun? You are welcome to your own moral beliefs however. If you want to start selling misrepresented and copyrighted stuff on ebay go right ahead.

deadhippo · Post by **deadhippo** » Nov 25th, '04, 17:12

this is an extremely difficult issue here
i posted my indiffernet vote but after reading a few posts i dont know what to think
its a very confusing issue
of course this ebay guy ougt to be praised for his initiative
ive sold overpriced stuff myself on amazon auction (not illegal)
just overpriced
i bought a book for about AUS$15 and sold it for US$50
there was a demand for a while

but this issue is a little different
i can understand the anger at somebody making profit over something i slaved for hours over
even if it was fun
why should someone profit from my work
but then again theres very little we can do

if it were me id join ebay and send messages to the people who purchased these objects and tell them where they can be found for free

kyootiiee · Post by **kyootiiee** » Nov 25th, '04, 17:46

I think that selling OTHER people's fansubs is wrong.
I also think that whoever's buying them isn't very smart in the head or they have too much money to waste on free material on the internet.

okumasama · Post by **okumasama** » Nov 25th, '04, 18:00

Concerning us we had paused our releases (areiacreations.com). This includes Mother & Lover, Taiyou No Kisetsu, Boku Dake No Maddona, Algernon ni Hanabata Wo and Itoshii Kimi E which where the projects we were working on. Only Tokyo Love Story will be released since it's a transcribe rather than translation.
If a solution won't be found and action won't be taken we would just move from paused to stop. That includes both eBay sellers (like gingertoys2) and distros. We are not happy seeing our releases copied and sold (even for 1 penny) from anybody.
We don't care that much for not profiting from it. This is for fun anyway. We are angry that somebody else profits from our works.

Post by **LittleGreenGrasshopper** » Nov 25th, '04, 18:19

Here's a different view on the matter:

I don't believe the problem lies with the buyers, at least not in most cases. Remember, not everyone is comfortable using the computer, especially the older generation (the ones with the money to spend). Being able to use the Internet may have already been a feat in itself, learning how to use the various P2P programs may be near impossible. Those who turn to E-Bay for things are also usually those who may less than patient in getting things. Downloading takes time, and hopefully, a good fast connection. True, the buyers may be ignorant of the fact that they're paying a premium for things that they could otherwise have gotten for free. But, there are also those who are willing to pay it because it's the only way or more practical way for them (there was a thread of buying from distros around).

I do sympathize with okumasama-san tho. Without a doubt, gingertoys2 has violated the agreement between the fansubbers and him/her when he/she started selling your/their work for profit. That in itself is unforgiveable, and dispictable as well. Having said that, did you try to talk to gingertoys2 about it? Let him/her know that you are aware of the violation and that you're not pleased about it? Perhaps, maybe come to some kind of compromise/resolution? In the end, at least you'll know that you did what you can and it'll give you peace of mind. Even if gingertoys2 really does turn out to be a dirtbag.

Well, I wish you the best of luck.

tailchaser · Post by **tailchaser** » Nov 25th, '04, 18:30

if it were me id join ebay and send messages to the people who purchased these objects and tell them where they can be found for free

Unfortunately, gingertoys has already thought of that which is why he only uses "buy it now". So we can't warn anyone or even offer to sell them the "DVDs" for just the price of shipping and media.

I just sent a complaint to Ebay for his kimi wa petto listing. It would be nice if some others did the same.

Here's another Ebay link to make it easier to complain.

Just click on:

Report listing violations or problems with another eBay member. and enter the item number (cut and paste from the top right of the auction page). In this case it is 6343918758.

I am planning to release something of my own, and I wish I could think of a way to protect it from these slimeballs. What I find curious is how buyers know enough about these dramas to want them without also knowing that they are available for free in exactly the same quality. Of course he doesn't mention that his DVDs are not the real thing. So maybe his victims believe that they are getting better quality than they can download.

StrangerInTheNight · Post by **StrangerInTheNight** » Nov 25th, '04, 18:47

tailchaser wrote:On Ebay, go to "Help" at the top of the page. Then go to "Contact Us" on the left of the page. Here you select "Report a listing policy violation or prohibited (banned) item" in the first field. Then select "Items that may violate a copyright or are counterfeit" (his listing is both). Then select "Report unauthorized copies of CDs, DVDs, tapes, etc."

If all of us with ebay accounts do this to gingertoys and any other slimeballs selling this kind of stuff, it will make it much more difficult for them.

Also, some of us may want to start a throwaway Ebay account based on a free email address based on false info and just bid on all his auctions and then not pay. This would cost him so much money in listing fees that he would eventually have to give up. And if enough of us did it we could put a stop to this slimy rat bastard profiting off of other peoples work.

Copyright infringement doesn't bother me so much when the stuff is given away but when someone tries to profit from it that really gets my goat. Combine that with the fact that he is listing these as actual DVDs!!! and you have a serious case of genuine fraud on your hands.

I think it's time for some vigilante justice. Anyone know anything about this guy? Like what country he's in? His first name or address or anything? The non-paying bidder thing might actually be a good way to get his info.

And Cindy, some of us believe that what he's doing is wrong. If he were raping 12 year old girls with a baseball bat, would you advocate that the rest of us stop complaining and join in on the fun? You are welcome to your own moral beliefs however. If you want to start selling misrepresented and copyrighted stuff on ebay go right ahead.

Agree with everything said above, except for the bit about the raping comparison. Not really a fair comparison, but point taken.

Also, I'm not a lawyer or anything, but I believe fansubbing is copyrighted to the person who subs it the moment those subs become a subtitle file ( general copyright is given to a creative work the moment it becomes a tangible form, which would include subtitle file). Unless I'm mistaken, Ebay should be legally obligated to take down all materials for which the owner of the copyright ( the original fansubber) has not received fair compensation. So not only is this jackass violatiing the copyright of whoever owns the drama, but also violating the copyright of whoever owns the subtitle file ( the fansubber), by distributing both for a profit. While the fansubber can have a legitmate claim of "fair use" of a drama, as most of these dramas don't come with subtitles and the fansubber puts in the effort to provide them, and for free , as a service, the gingerboys or those like him, are clearly breaking copyrights the moment they sell for a profit. Fansubbers, who have their work, sold for a profit by others, should be entitled to the pofits garnered by them.

I'm not buying the argument that these Ebay jerks are providing any service for Internet-impaired people who have difficulty using the net. Just as much effort goes into getting on Ebay as it does to find someone whose willing to trade subtitled dramas for no profit, only asking for the cost of blank DVD;s and shipping.

I say we take the vigilante course and report all the seller as selling unauthorized copies, inform potential buyers by telling them where they are available for free in the reviews. and eveything mentioned above.

In a perfect world, gingertoys and all like him would have to give up all their profits and give them to the orginal fansubbers, for all their hard and diligent work.

Post by **lilswtangel** » Nov 25th, '04, 18:57

that's why there's always something on everything fansubbed from anime to drama "This is a free fansub, if you bought this...you have been ripped off...please contact us at [enter fansub group]".

NO SELLING if you are a redistributor~

zdoon · Post by **zdoon** » Nov 25th, '04, 19:26

Who are the 4 idiots who voted "happy"? People who fansub do so to no benefit to themselves. Why should they do it? I'd like to think the answer to that is: They shouldn't. Especially considering how other people **** all over their work like this.

Shinigami · Post by **Shinigami** » Nov 25th, '04, 19:27

lilswtangel wrote:that's why there's always something on everything fansubbed from anime to drama "This is a free fansub, if you bought this...you have been ripped off...please contact us at [enter fansub group]".

lilswtangel you said, what I want to say

I think if the fansubber sell his or her work is ok. But if someone make easy money from work from other people it isn't OK !!!

If we find anyone who sell fansub on ebay, we can report them to ebay like tailchaser did.

Shinigami · Post by **Shinigami** » Nov 25th, '04, 19:30

zdoon wrote:Who are the 4 idiots who voted "happy"? People who fansub do so to no benefit to themselves. Why should they do it? I'd like to think the answer to that is: They shouldn't. Especially considering how other people **** all over their work like this.

maybe one of them is gingertoys2

jaycee05 · Post by **jaycee05** » Nov 25th, '04, 19:39

tailchaser wrote:
if it were me id join ebay and send messages to the people who purchased these objects and tell them where they can be found for free
Unfortunately, gingertoys has already thought of that which is why he only uses "buy it now". So we can't warn anyone or even offer to sell them the "DVDs" for just the price of shipping and media.

I just sent a complaint to Ebay for his kimi wa petto listing. It would be nice if some others did the same.

Here's another Ebay link to make it easier to complain.

Just click on:

Report listing violations or problems with another eBay member. and enter the item number (cut and paste from the top right of the auction page). In this case it is 6343918758.

I am planning to release something of my own, and I wish I could think of a way to protect it from these slimeballs. What I find curious is how buyers know enough about these dramas to want them without also knowing that they are available for free in exactly the same quality. Of course he doesn't mention that his DVDs are not the real thing. So maybe his victims believe that they are getting better quality than they can download.

tnx for the short cut....I was going to click the "send message to seller" and curse him/her to death, but she/he might have already received these kinds of mssgs before...so it might not be as effective...
I cant believe such people exist...I mean if I was in his/her position, I dont think I can bear the thought of getting seen by the original author plagiarizing his/her work...
forget that fact he is getting almost 90% profit, but vandalizing the videos with "GT" saying it's his creation absolutely puts my blood into a boil...
If we dont have these kind of bastards who have dogfood for dignity and principles, then we won't have these idiotic, mastercard-faced pinheads buying stuff from them...
In the end, it's still a frickin three-way-person, just like Jem's analogy of the cheating couple on the cuckold's bed.

Shinigami · Post by **Shinigami** » Nov 25th, '04, 20:35

I found this on ebay

Unauthorized Copies
Do not list unauthorized (such as pirated, duplicated, backup, bootleg, and so forth) copies of software programs, video games, music albums, movies, television programs, or photographs on eBay.

Examples
The following items may not be listed on eBay:

* Pirated copies of video games
* VHS or CD-R copies of television programs taped off of television
* "Backup" or "archival" copies of software programs
* Pirated copies of music
* "Bootleg" recordings of live music performances
* "Home video" versions of a movie still in theaters
* Software loaded onto a computer hard drive that is not being sold with the original media (disks, manuals, etc.)
* CD-Rs containing scanned pages from a book, magazine, manual or other copyrighted written materials that were not written by you

Warning
Listings offering unauthorized copies of software, games, music, or video may be ended early by eBay. Multiple violations of eBay's unauthorized copy policy could result in the suspension of your account.

And this

Downloadable Media Policy
eBay prohibits the listing of items or products to be delivered electronically through the Internet.

Examples
Here are examples of items that may not be listed on eBay because of the downloadable media policy:

* A copy of a software program which the successful high bidder can download from your Web site
* Music or video files that you will deliver through a peer to peer file-sharing community or network
* A copy of a downloadable eBook
* A secret URL address where the high bidder can download "freeware" or "shareware" software programs

Guideline
If you are the copyright owner of the downloadable material that you are listing on eBay, make sure you say so in your listing!

Warning
Listings violating eBay's downloadable media policy may be ended early by eBay. Multiple violations of eBay's downloadable media policy could result in the suspension of your account.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/downloadable.html

okumasama · Post by **okumasama** » Nov 25th, '04, 20:43

Shinigami wrote:I found this on ebay

...
I know it clearly violates eBay's rules. You can't even imagine how many reports I made on eBay and they won't do anything. Even a straight message to eBay (not just reporting the items) and the reply I got was that "we will take care of it" and nothing changed.
Maybe the expect from more people to report on it... I just don't know... It's a good try to report his items though... but always with contacting ebay as well... Here is eBay's customer support email: rswebhelp@ebay.com You can write to that email about gingerboys2 or any other illegal drama seller. It would be nice to use a nice tone with them or they will naturaly just delete the email.

ThaChinky · Post by **ThaChinky** » Nov 25th, '04, 20:53

honestly, i dont know what u can do. i mean if u put a scrolling logo that tells the buyers that they have been cheated and that the fansub can be obtained for free..and the buyers dont get mad..and keep buying..what can u do? if there are people like this willing to buy it again and again, knowing they got cheated..then its really hard to stop the seller. the seller will just start another page, another account..

what i dont understand is, that people dont get mad when they find out they've been cheated?? that is so hard to beleive, that people are THAT dumb.

Shinigami · Post by **Shinigami** » Nov 25th, '04, 20:56

Maybe ebay just concern about US movie or US product

And don't care about fansubs .. specially it is asian fansubber ..
We must with our own power to shut down anyone who steal fansub's works

fahsum · Post by **fahsum** » Nov 25th, '04, 21:47

errr, i have to take a stand for those "stupid" and "low IQ-stupid people" and "isn't very smart in the head" buyers cuz i was one before.

it was back in the days when i didn't know where to get English-subtitled dramas and eBay was the answer. one of the few dramas i bought include Jem's 'Loving You'. i still remember watching that series and seeing this watermark floating around on the first episode in the water scene saying "You have been cheated" or "Do not buy or rent this" and "Go to this channel" etc. and to be honest, i wasn't angry that i bought it cuz i didn't know anything about fansub at that time... cuz maybe i thought it was the seller that did the fansubbing or something. then of coz, i got more knowledgable about where to get English-subtitled dramas and seeing the drama that i paid so much for being freely distributed was when it irked me. in short, those watermark encodings really works.

okumasama: "Put a big "NOT FOR SALE" all over the screen" is a good start.

that example pic was pretty funny. if the seller/profiter tries to sell them again or just take the subs and transcribe them, you gotta give them the credit for wasting their time to download or buy the raws and get the subs and encode them and burn to vcds/dvds.

and plzzzz, don't pause or stop your releases... i dun wanna be blamed for the cause. besides, this is not a first time as kamui6 has noted. here's some solutions i can think of:
1) advertise about d-addicts, jtv, fob, kdrama, etc everywhere so more ppl know about our existence
2) like many fansubbers have done, encode the video raw with a watermark.
3) have a place or thread here where people can share their trade/distro links so even if a leecher misses a series, he/she can always trade for it or pay for it for a small fee or for the cost of media and shipping. (note: actually distros aren't that bad if the fee is small)

tailchaser: thanks for saving me the trouble of looking for links and info on reporting the seller on eBay. but yah, reporting to eBay might not work cuz it's hard to tell if the seller is selling real or fake stuff if you weren't a fan of fansubbed dramas.. and since the seller listed the dramas in DVD format, it eludes one to think that the seller is selling real stuff. and if the seller is not lying, they are located in Columbus, Georgia (GA).

LittleGreenGrasshopper: your post was well-said except i dun agree with the older generation thing. usually the older generation people are either not interested in dramas or they have the money to buy the real thing from YesAsia or something.

StrangerInTheNight · Post by **StrangerInTheNight** » Nov 25th, '04, 22:30

For Gingertoy and all those like him, who profit from the hard work of others, let me try to appeal to you one more time. You are biting the hands that feed you. You apparently enjoy dramas as much as any one else, considering you knew where to look for them and all. Understand that your actions jeopardize the chances of more fansubbers putting in their often underappreciated time and efforts into further providing the subtittles that will allow all of us to enjoy more of these dramas. No one appreciates their job being sold off for profit, when it was intended to be a free service. Your actions will contribute to less and less dramas being available for those who don't speak the language.

Should you have a shred of decency in you, you would donate your profits towards people like JEM so that he may continue to provide dramas for all of us.

okumasama · Post by **okumasama** » Nov 26th, '04, 01:12

fahsum wrote:and plzzzz, don't pause or stop your releases... i dun wanna be blamed for the cause. besides, this is not a first time as kamui6 has noted. here's some solutions i can think of:
1) advertise about d-addicts, jtv, fob, kdrama, etc everywhere so more ppl know about our existence
2) like many fansubbers have done, encode the video raw with a watermark.
3) have a place or thread here where people can share their trade/distro links so even if a leecher misses a series, he/she can always trade for it or pay for it for a small fee or for the cost of media and shipping. (note: actually distros aren't that bad if the fee is small)

No reason to feel bad about it. I didn't expect this thread to find out. If you find my releases and read their threads you will understand that this is a very old matter and we are very well informed about the profits made from our works. Sometimes I tried to solve that with slightly extreme ways. The problem is I don't want to mess up my life with this. I really get pissed off with that; I can't study, I can't play a game with piece in mind and of course can't do any subs when knowing somebody is making profits from that.
About your solutions well... my releases carry our group's watermark + a "Not for sale" at the top left. Also some messages threatening the sellers appear at the begining. 3 more neutral messages appear for a few seconds in various times that inform the viewer for the aims of these funsubs. Well as I told you before I don't want to mess my life. When you are threating somebody, that idea will be in your head and follow you whatever you do. So threatening the sellers might not be the best idea...
Maybe multiple messages all over the screen?? Won't that be very annoying for everybody including people that download the file normally from here?

Well I've been thinking that we could all together compose a stantard letter to send to all the people that actually bought that (from gingertoys2 feeback list) and left a positive feedback and let them know about this place. Gingertoys2 is already using this thread against us since it's a good advertisment for him in the right place-the heart of english subbed J-drama. So we could use his sales against him since eBay doesn't seem to take much action about this obvious fraud. By saying all these I already take lot of risk of gingertoys2 reading this and hunting me down. I've actually had enought with all these till they make me really angry and the last thing I need in the current period of my life is to be unbalanced... I just expect some people to help with this or I'll just turn again to a gready leacher waiting for the next drama to be posted.

deadhippo · Post by **deadhippo** » Nov 26th, '04, 01:37

i think everbody here
myself included
should report this gingertoys like someone mentioned before
in a polite way of course
if ebay receives enough complaints they will surely do something

but we need some advice about what exactly to say
i think we have to be careful about our wording

i dont think we should be too hard on the buyer
the fact is the quality of these rips are pretty damn good
and will still be pretty good on a dvd (thanks to the rippers here)
also that guy is probably putting it in a nice package
making a cover
a dvd menu
things like that

some people love all that ****
i think there are people who know about this site but are still willing to buy it on ebay

the horrible thing about it is that that ebay guy is probably a regular forum emmeber
posting and reading comments everyday

i feel one way to combat this would be to provide this dvd at cost but tis takes time and effort when really the fansubbers have already achieved what they wanted

im going to ask my friend about the legality of this situation
hes a lawyer dealing with intellectual property
and ill tell you what he says

ps: no offence intended, but it could also be one of the fansubbers
if one of the fansubbers often put out the idea of selling them as an option
maybe decided to go it on his/her own

Post by **lilswtangel** » Nov 26th, '04, 01:42

thanks for the link tailchaser, i reported gingerboy...

but somehow i do feel a lil sorry for him since i'm sure he'll be shocked at how all of a sudden everyone's reporting him on ebay...

and his feedback was pretty near perfect, too~

but oh well...he was bound to get caught sooner or later~

enuyasha · Post by **enuyasha** » Nov 26th, '04, 02:00

you know what they say " what goes around comes around"
eventually ppl get what's coming to them

I hope in the future all the ppl who sell the fansub works get banned from any kind of selling online.

StrangerInTheNight · Post by **StrangerInTheNight** » Nov 26th, '04, 02:16

deadhippo ,nothing to do with the topic or anything but i've noticed that on alot of your posts (on this thread and others), your writing is very structured. Like visually structured. Like when I first look at it, i thought it was a poem before i read it.

Just curious, is there a particular reason for doing so?

deadhippo · Post by **deadhippo** » Nov 26th, '04, 02:24

StrangerInTheNight wrote:deadhippo ,nothing to do with the topic or anything but i've noticed that on alot of your posts (on this thread and others), your writing is very structured. Like visually structured. Like when I first look at it, i thought it was a poem before i read it.

Just curious, is there a particular reason for doing so?

i like the sound of words
and how they go together

thats all

CiNN · Post by **CiNN** » Nov 26th, '04, 02:32

like some people said we lack advetisement
if people don't know how to get stuff they will buy from ebay
lacking seeds for old series -> going to ebay
lazy about searching and leaving computer all day to dl -> going to ebay

we should have burners ring like MAME does
they sends you cd/dvd at the cost of shipping + media
have a site that tops google when you type download dorama

deadhippo · Post by **deadhippo** » Nov 26th, '04, 03:08

ok this is my friends reply

NB not sure of Jap law but have assumed for purpose of comments below that copyright law would be similar to Aus. Obviously this email is not legal advice and must not be relied on in any way shape or form (unless you obtain legal advice from a qualified lawyer in your country) consider it part of your ongoing legal education (and seriously be a bit careful with internet and copyright (since it is illegal and you can get big fines if caught))

i wanted to ask you for some free legal advice
so you can always tell me to f*** off and il understand
anyway
this is the scenario
some people are ripping tv japanese shows to avi format and adding
english subtiles
after translating
english subtitles dont exist before this process
they provide them for free on the web
illegal?

[MIR - ripping tv japanese shows would normally breach copyright (and other IP) as you are copying and using the TV shows without permission of the cretor / owner of those shows ("TV Show Owner"), there are of course certain exceptions to this (such as right of use/ academic use / right to take the piss out (parady) etc) that I will not bother to mention since I am assume you only want highlevel view of copyright (not how you get around it).

Interesting the people putting in the subtitles ("Subtitle Creator") would have copyright in those subtitles, though they would not have any rights to the original TV Shows, so in theory no one could use the subtitles (not even the TV Show Owner) without the Subtitle Creator's consent. That said anyone could recreate subtitles from scratch as copyright only protects against copying not creation from scratch of a new work. Either way riping tv japanese shows to AVIs is a blantent breach of TV Show Owner's copyright (and probably other IP such as tradearks etc) and therefore illegal (unless falls within an exemption under local law). That siad the internet has trucks loads of illegal content and lots of people get away with it if they dont get noticed and dont try and make money out of it (see comments below)

next part is more intereseting
someone else is downloading them and using them to make dvds which he
sells on ebay for a tidy profit,
is there a way to stop him

[MIR - see comment above, both the TV Show Owner's and Subtitle Creator's could stop taht person (as breaching there copyright), also given that the person is making money from this the person is more likely to be noticed and the court are more likely to punish that person (since this is blantent theft with profit)]

i dont know of course, not being a lawyer
but i think that the subtitles themselves are someones property - like art
and alsoo that maybe by adding the subtitles to the avi files you are
creating a new product
which can be sold

[MIR - see comment 1 above, you are creating a new work by adding subtitles but you do not have any rights to most of that work (as owned by the TV Show Owner) therefore you cannot copy in the first palce use let alone sell / distibute

i dont know if this was helpful or not
ps IP is intellectual property

okumasama · Post by **okumasama** » Nov 26th, '04, 03:27

So as my laywer also told me I own the copyrights for the subtitles even if I don't take any permission for that. This is quite interesting cause I can get back with the idea of copyrighting the subtitles and hunt down whoever sells them or anything including them...
Anyway, if I were to put lots of messages displayed during the drama to inform the viewers and to stop the sellers what would you suggest? Give me some ideas.

Sana · Post by **Sana** » Nov 26th, '04, 03:56

Oh, I remember this bastard.

Seems that Ebay doesn't care but I've heard that if you complain EVERY week that it usually gets the job done. Another route you could try is to use Ebay's message board. If it's out in public, they would be hard pressed to deny that they received a complaint.

NatNat · Post by **NatNat** » Nov 26th, '04, 06:09

scenario #1: the fansubber who put in the work
they're providing a service. they have the right to tag on a price. also, as a service provider they have the choice of the price range. As consumers we can choose to pay for it or not. God Bless the ones that share for free or with hopes of reciprocation.

scenario #3: the seller that stole from a hardworking fansubber
They're all going to hell anyway. Don't sweat it, dudes.

zdoon · Post by **zdoon** » Nov 26th, '04, 06:14

NatNat wrote:scenario #1: the fansubber who put in the work
they're providing a service. they have the right to tag on a price. also, as a service provider they have the choice of the price range. As consumers we can choose to pay for it or not. God Bless the ones that share for free or with hopes of reciprocation.

scenario #3: the seller that stole from a hardworking fansubber
They're all going to hell anyway. Don't sweat it, dudes.

Did you deliberately forget 2?

I'd fill it out as such: People getting fansubs should leave that **** alone! Fact is that ginger dude is making a regular business out of other people's work. I can understand getting rid old cdr rips or whatever (though that's not supposed to be allowed anyway) but it'd be far more respectful, in any case, to leave the videos as they were intended to be: that is, absolutely, not for profit! (postedit: I misread your scenario 1 as being an advocation for people who rip off fansubbers.... anyway....

)

Second, Hell might not exist and not everyone believes in it, so your 3 wouldn't give much consolation anyway.

NatNat · Post by **NatNat** » Nov 26th, '04, 06:22

zdoon wrote: Did you deliberately forget 2?

well, i figured Scenario #2 was a bit too heinous to type out for the public.

zdoon wrote: Second, Hell might not exist and not everyone believes in it or a "justice" via an invisible Jewish dude in the clouds, so your 3 wouldn't give much consolation anyway.

I didn't meant the biblical hell. In fact, the hell I mention doesn't have to be metaphysical at all. Example: My life is a giant hell. I don't think the Bible mentions anything about house arrest in the suburbs.

okumasama · Post by **okumasama** » Nov 26th, '04, 13:15

NatNat wrote:scenario #1: the fansubber who put in the work
they're providing a service. they have the right to tag on a price. also, as a service provider they have the choice of the price range. As consumers we can choose to pay for it or not.

You are very mistaken on that. If I work for a car's repair shop, changing your car's tyres doesn't obviously allows me to sell your car. This is excacly what is being done in funsubbing and since the new encode contains copyright material (like you own a car), nobody can't sell it. I could of course provide a fee for the subtitles file but never for the video and only if the subtitle file comes from the scratch (as very well said before by somebody) and not from a transcribe. More detailed and specific, if you own the original DVD box set, and I sell you the English subtitles which I made that's OK-it's excacly like changing your car's tires, or adding an accecory on your car. I can decide on my service fee. But If you don't own a car (you don't own the DVD box set) how can I change your tires?
As the choise of the consumers well... if the car is stolen (like the material in the DVDs gingertoys sells are) they should at least be aware of that. Seems they are... The problem is we fall under a special category here. I'll make an example: Let's say Toyota makes some cars in Japan that doesn't export outside Japan. But people like those cars so they want them. But since the steer wheel is a the right they can't drive it in their country (well... just for the example- I know they can). But Toyota in they country won't do the change because they don't import that car. So somebody actually steals (not buy) the cars, change the steer wheel to the left and then sell it to everybody. The exotism on that product (because is not available otherwise) makes people's mind like scrambled eggs and they would pay as much they will be asked to, so they can have it. J-dorama is not a cloth needed by everyone, it is only consumed (outside Japan/China) by a very small community and as you can easily see around sellers tend to play with these kind of people (small groups) and sell them things at extreme high prices. What I want to say it's that actually the consumers DON'T have a choise. When the choise is to buy it or not that can't be regarded as a choise. They are addicted (like we are) and they will buy it.

Well I know that the example with a car and a drama might be a bit... strange and sometimes hard to compare but I think you got the point...

deadhippo · Post by **deadhippo** » Nov 26th, '04, 16:41

i think the analogy was quite good
the fact is its not legal to profit from these files
its more than likely not even legal to share these files

i think if the fansubber wants to make money he has to break the law by selling
like the ebay guy
he is already breaking the law by sharing
its just another step

but like my friend said
the persom making a profit
is the most likely to be punished

or they could just sell the sub file
but this is the filesharing community
it only takes one purchase
sometimes less
for it to appear as a free download

NatNat · Post by **NatNat** » Nov 26th, '04, 17:43

okumasama wrote: You are very mistaken on that. If I work for a car's repair shop, changing your car's tyres doesn't obviously allows me to sell your car. This is excacly what is being done in funsubbing and since the new encode contains copyright material (like you own a car), nobody can't sell it. I could of course provide a fee for the subtitles file but never for the video and only if the subtitle file comes from the scratch (as very well said before by somebody) and not from a transcribe. More detailed and specific, if you own the original DVD box set, and I sell you the English subtitles which I made that's OK-it's excacly like changing your car's tires, or adding an accecory on your car. I can decide on my service fee. But If you don't own a car (you don't own the DVD box set) how can I change your tires?
As the choise of the consumers well... if the car is stolen (like the material in the DVDs gingertoys sells are) they should at least be aware of that. Seems they are... The problem is we fall under a special category here. I'll make an example: Let's say Toyota makes some cars in Japan that doesn't export outside Japan. But people like those cars so they want them. But since the steer wheel is a the right they can't drive it in their country (well... just for the example- I know they can). But Toyota in they country won't do the change because they don't import that car. So somebody actually steals (not buy) the cars, change the steer wheel to the left and then sell it to everybody. The exotism on that product (because is not available otherwise) makes people's mind like scrambled eggs and they would pay as much they will be asked to, so they can have it. J-dorama is not a cloth needed by everyone, it is only consumed (outside Japan/China) by a very small community and as you can easily see around sellers tend to play with these kind of people (small groups) and sell them things at extreme high prices. What I want to say it's that actually the consumers DON'T have a choise. When the choise is to buy it or not that can't be regarded as a choise. They are addicted (like we are) and they will buy it.

Well I know that the example with a car and a drama might be a bit... strange and sometimes hard to compare but I think you got the point...

Don't you think you're looking at the situation too closely under the microscope? Personally, my morals as it stands (albeit flimsy) would not allow me to sell a fansub to unwitting consumers on Ebay for astronomical prices. However, consumers DO have a choice. They don't have to buy from Ebay. Since they have access to the Internet, they have a wealth of information at their fingertips same as you or me. They could easily find a place like D-Addicts without the aid of some Omnicient Being telling them where to go in a burning bush vision.

My hypothesis would have to be, some of the people are willing to buy Fansubs off Ebay are doing it out of convenience (which is another facet why Ebay sellers make tons of money). If you're speaking on behalf of the people who shell out ridiculous sums of money for something they could get for free, don't feel too moralistic.

We should all understand "Let the Buyer Beware" especially on Ebay.

TooMuchCoffee · Post by **TooMuchCoffee** » Nov 27th, '04, 05:27

well i believe everyone has the choice to do what ever they want,
personally i would never sell anything of mine, im one of those suckers, that get a huge kick out of sharring stuff, that i usually tend to give half the things i download away just so some one else can watch it!
i love discussing stuff to anyone,

but people who do sell things that someone gave them for free, has some issues they need to work out i think....

rainidy · Post by **rainidy** » Nov 27th, '04, 06:00

I think it's totally wrong for someone to take someone's else work and sell it online. The fansubbers effort is abused to earn money which those people do not deserve.

TooMuchCoffee · Post by **TooMuchCoffee** » Nov 27th, '04, 06:53

i have to agree with raindy, i fansubbed my first drama with the help of phoneix, and my friend ayumi
and it took alot of time to do! but when i was finished i was happy other people could enjoy the drama

im not happy with people selling things that they find for free, but this is the life of democracy,
where we choose,
and always there are some dinks out there who abuse the system for their own personal gain, (they later become major politicians)

zettywei · Post by **zettywei** » Nov 27th, '04, 08:05

I never knew people buy the subs... at least no one offered them to me before

But if that is happening, then it is not right. Hope all the nice people who are sub-ing the series are generous enough not to be stopped by these $$$$ people. Cannot live without sub......English ones.

serene89 · Post by **serene89** » Nov 27th, '04, 09:40

Are there any ways to like.. ban their ip from this website? Or just block them from entering here? I think this can help a little...?

calla · Post by **calla** » Nov 27th, '04, 10:18

This is just my thought. I'm relatively new to bt and didn't know anything about it until I purchased my first drama with English subs, not realising what it really was. The person who recorded, edited and shared the episodes had words flashing across the beginning of every ep that it was fanwork, that I'd been ripped off if I'd paid for it and that I could dl eps for free at such and such a location. I think everyone here knows who this great idea originated from, right? I daren't mention names for fear of breaking any rules. Anyway, the point is: after that I never purchased another drama from these sellers again because the creator had channelled me in the right direction (well, it was irc which I couldn't get right, dug alittle further and discovered bt).

Perhaps everyone else should do the same? Then, for a start, sellers like Gingertoys won't get repeat buyers which is a step in the right direction?

Post by **iceberri** » Nov 27th, '04, 13:55

Unfortunately, some people are more willing to dish out $20 than bother with the hassle of figuring out BT and using their brain (that's what it's there for, duh). Therefore, you get all of these buyers who repeatedly buy off of gingertoys because their only source is through ebay. Although I'm sure the warnings help those who are actually willing to try new things.... they won't for the lazy tards. In the end, it's gingertoys who gets the last laugh.

Post by **neonkinpatsu** » Nov 27th, '04, 17:36

serene89 wrote:Are there any ways to like.. ban their ip from this website? Or just block them from entering here? I think this can help a little...?

I don't even think it's that simple. Even banning won't do very much, there are ways around that even if it were to be done. People post torrents on Suprnova and similar sites, people can just change their IP, etc. And there are sooo many of these sellers, it feels like they sprout up daily.

Besides that, these Ebay sellers have so many titles, they can easily just make yet another copy of what they have and find an unknowing trader by using another nick and get the new stuff. As careful as I normally am, I accidentally traded with someone last year, and within a week it was on Ebay. >__< They had like 5 nicks I found out, and one of the emails happened to come in with the nick of an Ebay seller I'd seen selling dramas on Ebay before. I didn't give them a fansub, it was a TV capture....but still. I felt really bad because I don't condone Ebay selling, but I accidentally became a contributor to it. I haven't really seen their nick around lately so maybe they fizzled or changed the nick.

zdoon · Post by **zdoon** » Nov 28th, '04, 02:00

Damn, it appears I got so acquainted with that show that I was able to determine, on the first try, what episode those lines were coming from, and that's definitely my work.

Anyway, gingerfuck2 is selling FH for 27$. I'm not going to lie, that has me steaming, even though I am not surprised to see it....

lolipss · Post by **lolipss** » Nov 28th, '04, 03:53

can't we just ask e-bay to ban this person from their system so he can't sell this thing on ebay again?

lilyella · Post by **lilyella** » Nov 28th, '04, 04:32

this is so wrong! they should definitely not sell these fansubs. seeing them sell these stuff makes me angry.

i've also seen some websites here in my country where they sell fansubs. it pisses me off whenever i see their sites selling these stuff and i email them back that these are fansubs you are selling and you should not profit from them.too many lazy people out there who would rather buy fansubs than figure out what bit torrent is all about.

zdoon · Post by **zdoon** » Nov 28th, '04, 04:47

zdoon wrote:

Damn, it appears I got so acquainted with that show that I was able to determine, on the first try, what episode those lines were coming from, and that's definitely my work.

Anyway, gingerfuck2 is selling FH for 27$. I'm not going to lie, that has me steaming, even though I am not surprised to see it....

Haha, as predicted, this fucktard has taken down all of the pics with the subtitles with them. (She/he obviously browses this board on a regular basis.)

For the record, I'll just post it up the pic again:

I saved the page and pics as they were before, so I have something to go by. I also wrote to ebay about the seller and areas of copyright law pertaining to 'Subtitle Creator.' Seller is also from "Columbus, GA", it seems. How many d-addict posters/ips are from that area? I'm guessing it's possible to name names.

Post by **neonkinpatsu** » Nov 28th, '04, 05:09

LOL, I like how Stairway to Heaven is sold with eps 1-10 and Prince's First Love 1-6 as some supposed bonus

I also find it interesting that for fansubs and TV captured titles it says "not available domestically" but for rips of Korean drama DVD's it does not indicate that (because of course they are available domestically)

donna8157 · Post by **donna8157** » Nov 28th, '04, 05:34

I agree that it's completely wrong for this person and other people to take fansubbers' hard work and make a profit of it out of ebay. If they are going to distribute these dorama titles to other people, they should not being making such a huge profit out of it. It's wrong.

The other reason I post this is that I hope okumasama finds some sort of way to still continue fansubbing "Taiyou no Kisetsu" (which I am completely addicted to) without having to worry about other people taking his work and selling it.

Post by **neonkinpatsu** » Nov 28th, '04, 06:37

I was doing some thinking and estimating. And it made me kinda sick.

I noticed in the past 12 months, gingertoys2 has received about 7000 positive feedback entries. As an estimate, the lowest priced drama I could find without hardcore digging was about $15.99, plus shipping. Since many are more (towards $30), I figure this was a decent way to start minimally estimating how much money has come into his/her hands by selling TV captures, DVD rips, and fansubs.

If you multiply $15.99 x 7000 for this year alone, the number you get is $111,930 Remember this seller has been a member since 2000 and may or may not have sold other non-drama or non-anime items too. But, I thought that was.....I can't even find the words. If that much or more has been made in profit, that is pretty wild

If someone wants to say again that anime and drama fansub/tv caps/dvd rip ebay sellers are okay, do you wanna maybe rethink that now?

tailchaser · Post by **tailchaser** » Nov 28th, '04, 07:07

I think the fansubber himself claiming copyright on the subs to Ebay is one promising avenue. Another is for any one of us to claim that we are a North American representative for Japanese TV network x and that we will be pursuing legal action against not only the "seller" but also Ebay if they do not remove the offending auction. Either way, legal action should be mentioned. Anyone know how to write a good, old-fashioned C&D letter?

Some of us definitely need to do the nonpaying bidder thing if only to get this guy/gal's address and phone number. All you have to do is make a "safe harbor" request for his info and you can get it. We can then post his (or her) real name and address. Of course, if it turns out you don't have a good reason to request it after all Ebay won't be too happy.

Watching all this makes me wonder whether I should start selling DVD-R copies of all kinds of dramas, movies, music, and software on Ebay. Copyright, shmopyright. Hell, maybe I could even sell drugs over Ebay. Ebay certainly doesn't seem to care about illegal activities as long as they get their commission. They are not going to do anything to gingertoys because his bootlegging organization is making them money too. I still think we should try however. Give them the benefit of the doubt by complaining to them in large numbers and continuously for a while.

ar-a-mach · Post by **ar-a-mach** » Nov 28th, '04, 07:32

lol most of the items are cheaper @ http://www.shopktslab.com/index.php

ppl really are stupid

pockiiee · Post by **pockiiee** » Nov 28th, '04, 13:32

I'll jump on the bandwagon - it's awful.

As for those purchasing the dramas, I think it's ignorance - they just don't know any better. There are a lot of people who are interested in drama that really don't know anything about the internet, and setting up file sharing programmes like BT is something they've never heard of. They see a drama, subbed, on Ebay, and are really happy to purchase it, not knowing that they can get it elsewhere for free. Why pay if you know it's free? I think this must be the reason. And who are the 5% that voted happy? I am hoping that they just didn't understand the question fully.

However gingertoys and his crew are scumbags. They know exactly what they are doing, and that those who made the fansubs aren't happy about it.

I'm really afraid that this issue may be the end of fansubbing - I notice that a couple of very respected fansub groups are going to stop providing translations because of this, and it makes me really sad. Most of this board (or those that post) really appreciate the work that goes into it, and do not violate that trust by selling copies.

I wish there was a way around this -without getting rid os fansubs alltogether, a way to make sure gingertoys etc. doesn't get his hands on the subs. Maybe password protected files , but ashh.... that just leads to more problems, and how do you know who you can trust? Just a lot of extra work for the kind people who are already working hard to bring us subs.

I don't know what the solution is, but writing to ebay now to see if that helps.

Shinigami · Post by **Shinigami** » Nov 28th, '04, 13:51

Hey .. this ginger hat change 3 times his/her ebay ident .

User ID Effective Date End Date
gingertoys2 Sep-25-03 Present
dvdtalk-half Mar-06-02 Sep-25-03
half.com:dvdtalk-half Oct-21-00 Mar-06-02

Let's make him/her to change his/her ebay ident for the 4th times

and this is his/her email : gingertoys2@hotmail.com

Post by **iceberri** » Nov 28th, '04, 14:32

Seems like gingertoys not only uses bittorrent, but newsgroups as well.
101st Marriage Proposal

lolipss · Post by **lolipss** » Nov 28th, '04, 15:14

ehmz.... dust off gonna be piss off if he hear his hard work is being selled on ebay by this gingertoys scumbag.....

voice of reason · Post by **voice of reason** » Nov 28th, '04, 16:24

Forget about ownership of Subtitles. Report him for selling illegal pirated copywrite material, then report him to the japanese tv companies.
Report him to as many people as possible and he will not just get a fine he will go to prison for fraud.

okumasama · Post by **okumasama** » Nov 28th, '04, 16:25

lolipss wrote:ehmz.... dust off gonna be piss off if he heard his hard work is being selled on ebay by this gingertoys scumbag.....

Oh...Slow down guys. I really respect everybody for what they doing but please try to differate TV ripping, DVD-Ripping, Transcribing and Translating. As from my position I hate to see "Jem Subbed" or "JTV ripped" etc... dust off doesn't own the subtitles. The subtitles are from Kiku channel and Kiku own the subtitles. His work it's great but it is a copy of the Kiku subs. I don't underestimate those, I'm doing the same for Tokyo Love Story... but I can't claim any rights on those. Gingertoys2 is selling the Kiku TV rips and nobody can stop him doing that except kiku. Same goes for Jem's rips and for mediacorp singapore.

JTV's releases can be surely regarded (in most cases) original work. Thus it's the only group (I won't talk about mine) that can actually claim that somebody is selling their work. Jem is just ripping from TV which I'm really happy and I respect that but hold on. What made ripping from TV (or from DVD) such a complex task or something you could call "work"??? (same goes for Kiku keal encodes) Transcribe is at least something you spend a lot of time on but again it's not an original work...

Please get serious and don't call everybody gods. I also gave my support on the donation for Jem and I would do it for anybody else including dust-off, SO or JTV if they had such a problem. This is not an attack to anybody of these people because they never claimed that they translated or they did something more than they did... Just to everybody that assumes everything as fansubbing.

People that don't respect or don't have any idea about this, are the same people that get ripped off and cheated by eBay sellers. I even found on the net a while ago "gingertoys2 subbed"! The following page has both "Jem subbed" and "gingertoys subbed" in http://www.geocities.com/avalon_4ever/asiandramas.htm
If I don't get money, If I don't get any honor, if I don't get any hapiness why should I continue fan-subbing? I am absolutely dissapointed

lolipss · Post by **lolipss** » Nov 28th, '04, 16:38

okumasama wrote:
lolipss wrote:ehmz.... dust off gonna be piss off if he heard his hard work is being selled on ebay by this gingertoys scumbag.....
Oh...Slow down guys. I really respect everybody for what they doing but please try to differate TV ripping, DVD-Ripping, Transcribing and Translating. As from my position I hate to see "Jem Subbed" or "JTV ripped" etc... dust off doesn't own the subtitles. The subtitles are from Kiku channel and Kiku own the subtitles. His work it's great but it is a copy of the Kiku subs.

are you sure okumasama? i though dust off translate 101 proposal by himself since 101 proposal never aired in kiku-tv before.... hehee

check it here http://www.kikutv.com/shows/index.html

maybe u mistook dust off subs with doramaworks subs....

doramawork use the kiku subs

okumasama · Post by **okumasama** » Nov 28th, '04, 16:47

lolipss wrote:
okumasama wrote:
lolipss wrote:ehmz.... dust off gonna be piss off if he heard his hard work is being selled on ebay by this gingertoys scumbag.....
Oh...Slow down guys. I really respect everybody for what they doing but please try to differate TV ripping, DVD-Ripping, Transcribing and Translating. As from my position I hate to see "Jem Subbed" or "JTV ripped" etc... dust off doesn't own the subtitles. The subtitles are from Kiku channel and Kiku own the subtitles. His work it's great but it is a copy of the Kiku subs.
are you sure okumasama? i though dust off translate 101 proposal by himself since 101 proposal never aired in kiku-tv before.... hehee

check it here http://www.kikutv.com/shows/index.html

maybe u mistook dust off subs with doramaworks subs....

doramawork use the kiku subs

Check the version that gingertoys2 is selling. Even if it is not kiku and it is anything else I don't think that somebody would translate a drama that could transcribe. But I guess you didn't understand my point, It's not about you or dust-off.

Edit: I guess you are right on that, it seems it's dust off's version and I'm sorry to start this with your post. So if dust-off really translated that and he doesn't like gingertoys2 selling that he/she can claim his copyrights (don't need to pre-copyright anything - the proof is where he posted that) and close gingertoys2 down. But my point still remains.

Asian DramaWiki Forum