Will Japanese music ever survive in America?
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I wish I could. I accidentally deleted Robocon from my profile, and this was the next best thing I had on my website at the time (BTW, it's Suzuki Fumika).nikochanr3 wrote:groink, changing your picture has really thrown me off. i always imagined the voice coming from that strange orange thing. Suddenlty, you are female! it doesnt fit.
please change back ASAP.
Hey, I've been reading this thread for a little while, but I suddenly felt the need to add my own two cents, if you don't mind. There's not much more I can say that hasn't already been said, but if you'll please bear with me...
In my opinion, I doubt that Japanese artists will ever make much of an impact in mainstream American music culture, unless sometime in the future, the American image of what defines popular changes. As mentioned before by several people, the American definition of "cool" (which really determines what's popular and what's not) is a lot different than that of the Japanese, for male and female artists alike.
What I mean is that in America, with the current trend of "cool", I doubt many people would find a lot of bouncy J-Pop very appealing. In general, Americans like sexy, and Japanese like cute. (This in particular is more so for female artists.) Maybe an American audience would find it passingly amusing, cute maybe, but more often than not, the reaction might be "Why are they acting like they're on drugs?" or "Why does she sound like she's 11? It's annoying me.". Not to dismiss all J-Pop, there are plenty of acts out there that aren't hyperactive or high on the squealy-factor. But as beautifully as they sing, many people just won't follow them. Although there are some people who appreciate good music for what it is, many people want to listen to music they can relate to - and it's hard for a monolingual American to relate to a Japanese song if they can't understand it. Some people can't even stand reading the subtitles of a Japanese anime.
The same goes for male artists, as well. People like music they can relate to. Plus, in general, most girls in America don't tend to think that guys who look like girls are hot. To some, it's just plain weird. For a lot of American girls (the group which is probably, by far, the biggest consumers of all things pop), the ideal guy is tall, handsome and manly, etc. -- not "pretty", skinny or, as with the case with many Asian people, short. Some girls might even feel threatened, or at least a weirded out by the fact that there are men that look more feminine than they do. Or, god forbid, in makeup. The stereotype in America is that if you're a guy wearing a lot of makeup, and you're not Johnny Depp, then you're "obviously gay".
Even for J-Rock, I don't see a huge impact in store for Japanese artists, at least in the mainstream sense. Underground, bands like Dir en grey have made it pretty far Stateside. Sure, some J-Rock groups sound good, and sure, their look, to some, is unique and refreshing -- but still, so many aspects of the music are alien to Americans, like the crossdressing. Personally, I don't think there will be an explosion of popularity. But it's always been known that the rock scene, especially underground, is much more forgiving than popular culture. Rock dares to be outrageous and different. You don't have to understand it in order to enjoy it. Heck, there are American bands that I'm sure perfect coherent English speakers don't understand. But if it sounds good, it'll get what it deserves. Bands like Diru already have a sizeable following. A reasonable amount of success for J-Rock in the near future is probably a minimum, in my opinion.
Even so, for any popular Japanese artist trying to break into mainstream American culture J-Pop or J-Rock or whatever weird categorizations you put them in -- although it is a difficult task, it's not even a necessary one. They're already popular in Japan. They're not poor starving artists. And as many have said before, just because they don't get recognized in America doesn't mean that they can't be and aren't good.
You guys already appreciate them. In a way, that already says a lot.
In my opinion, I doubt that Japanese artists will ever make much of an impact in mainstream American music culture, unless sometime in the future, the American image of what defines popular changes. As mentioned before by several people, the American definition of "cool" (which really determines what's popular and what's not) is a lot different than that of the Japanese, for male and female artists alike.
What I mean is that in America, with the current trend of "cool", I doubt many people would find a lot of bouncy J-Pop very appealing. In general, Americans like sexy, and Japanese like cute. (This in particular is more so for female artists.) Maybe an American audience would find it passingly amusing, cute maybe, but more often than not, the reaction might be "Why are they acting like they're on drugs?" or "Why does she sound like she's 11? It's annoying me.". Not to dismiss all J-Pop, there are plenty of acts out there that aren't hyperactive or high on the squealy-factor. But as beautifully as they sing, many people just won't follow them. Although there are some people who appreciate good music for what it is, many people want to listen to music they can relate to - and it's hard for a monolingual American to relate to a Japanese song if they can't understand it. Some people can't even stand reading the subtitles of a Japanese anime.
The same goes for male artists, as well. People like music they can relate to. Plus, in general, most girls in America don't tend to think that guys who look like girls are hot. To some, it's just plain weird. For a lot of American girls (the group which is probably, by far, the biggest consumers of all things pop), the ideal guy is tall, handsome and manly, etc. -- not "pretty", skinny or, as with the case with many Asian people, short. Some girls might even feel threatened, or at least a weirded out by the fact that there are men that look more feminine than they do. Or, god forbid, in makeup. The stereotype in America is that if you're a guy wearing a lot of makeup, and you're not Johnny Depp, then you're "obviously gay".
Even for J-Rock, I don't see a huge impact in store for Japanese artists, at least in the mainstream sense. Underground, bands like Dir en grey have made it pretty far Stateside. Sure, some J-Rock groups sound good, and sure, their look, to some, is unique and refreshing -- but still, so many aspects of the music are alien to Americans, like the crossdressing. Personally, I don't think there will be an explosion of popularity. But it's always been known that the rock scene, especially underground, is much more forgiving than popular culture. Rock dares to be outrageous and different. You don't have to understand it in order to enjoy it. Heck, there are American bands that I'm sure perfect coherent English speakers don't understand. But if it sounds good, it'll get what it deserves. Bands like Diru already have a sizeable following. A reasonable amount of success for J-Rock in the near future is probably a minimum, in my opinion.
Even so, for any popular Japanese artist trying to break into mainstream American culture J-Pop or J-Rock or whatever weird categorizations you put them in -- although it is a difficult task, it's not even a necessary one. They're already popular in Japan. They're not poor starving artists. And as many have said before, just because they don't get recognized in America doesn't mean that they can't be and aren't good.
You guys already appreciate them. In a way, that already says a lot.
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well if JPOP dosnt make it in america they'll make it some where..well I'm from Canada and we have a few good artists come here, we had TMREVOLUTION come to Vancouver last year and hes popular, DIR EN GREY is stepping foot in Torronto on the 28th..theyve toured in America but sadly even theyve had a bad time...ppl were relly rude booded them off stage and threw stuff at them, I havent heard of any japanese band having that happen to them...so tour wise ..I'm not sure how japanese artists will do but album wise most do well, mainly the ppl that do music for anime but I think that as these artists continue to send their music here they will be more recognized, JPOP amd JROCK has very good potental and if theres more ppl that like it the more it will be popular
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from my point of view, jpop will probably never make it in the US cuz the idea of pop is just way to different (just look at the music videos!) however jrock does sound kinda alike to some of the rock in the US (like emo? i dunno lol) i really do hope that some of my fav bands come over to the US for once instead of just feeling bad i'd never get a chance to be in one of their concerts.
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First of all, TheWonton, what exactly do you mean by "America"? Just the US? That's fairly narrow, I'd say...
As far as I know, America is a continent, so I think even if an Asian artist does not become famous in the USA, he or she can succeed somewhere else in the continent.
Wasn't the Japanese song "Ue wo muite arukou" [Sukiyaki] a great hit in most of the American continent in the past?
So, I think they can still make it.
As far as I know, America is a continent, so I think even if an Asian artist does not become famous in the USA, he or she can succeed somewhere else in the continent.
Wasn't the Japanese song "Ue wo muite arukou" [Sukiyaki] a great hit in most of the American continent in the past?
So, I think they can still make it.
Woah! Did I write this post????? Everything in here is CORRECT!!!! 100-PERCENT CORRECT!!!!phayl wrote:Hey, I've been reading this thread for a little while, but I suddenly felt the need to add my own two cents, if you don't mind. There's not much more I can say that hasn't already been said, but if you'll please bear with me...
The meaning and feeling behind the English word handsome or masculine has not reached Japan. Here's my hypothesis over this issue... I think Japanese females don't look at sexuality of their favorite artists the same as females in the US. Bottom line, females in the US look at men more as sexual desires than those in Eastern Asia. The masculine or handsome look in entertainment is part of that arrousal. Even in teenybopper land, the boys do have that cuteness to them, but they still look like males.
On the other hand, I feel that females in Japan have some sort of disorder in their head when it comes to entertainment. Maybe they're wheened on too much anime or something... I still haven't pinned down exactly what gets Japanese females "off", but I have to say it isn't masculinity. ANY Johnny's member under the age of 20 do not carry the traits we Americans define as being masculine. They take on the same physical attributes of a female. They're pretty! They're beautiful! They like kittens... They like cuttling... They like hugging other males. They cry... They have absolutely no muscle tone to their arms. And they're skinny! Look at NEWS... They're teenyboppers, but they already look like queers, I'm sorry to say... Take that back, I'm not sorry about it! They do look like queers!!! Try comparing them to InSync or any other American boy band. American boy band members look like young men. Japanese boy band members look like girls with an Adam's apple in their throats.
This wasn't so just a few years ago... Leading up to the late 1990's, even the Johnny's looked like clean, masculine young men. Watching old Kouhaku clips dating back to the 1970's, the men and boys looked like men and boys. But now, even the g*d damn enka stars like Hikawa Kiyoshi are starting to look like the softer side of Sears?
I'm with phayl all the way... It's alright for females to think that Pokemon and Hello Kitty are cute. But for them to want their males to look cute and pretty, I have issues with it. How do these females get arroused to pretty, beautiful or cute? How are females supposed to masturbate to these males when they look more like their girlfriends or kabuki actors????
--- groink
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I'm going to try to take a stab at this - it's a phenomenon in Japan that I don't see in other Asian countries as prevalent, i.e Korea (Rain is in no way feminine), Hong Kong or even Taiwan...I think why these very adrogynous and effeminate male celebrities are adored is simply because they look so much like females and act so much like girls that they are non-threatening to a mostly female fanbase. Japan being a patriarchal society (more so than North America), masculinity becomes a threat or at the very least leaves a woman/girl feeling the sense of under empowerment. In that sense, extreme femininity in men can become very appealing and arousing. I know a lot of people would say well everyone likes beautiful things and liking beautiful people is no different - but most don't realize that masculinity can be beautiful as well and not just femininity. This feeling is no different from manga or anime, in which they have a constant portrayal effeminate male characters who are often the hero in the story and the non-effeminate male character is most often the antagonist (once again masculintiy being a threat)...My only other assumption to why there's an obsession with adrogynous males can also go back to an obsession with youth...all things young are naturally cute and much more attractive...and a man who shows any sense of masculinity is now grown-up (an adult), therefore unattractive and not appealing. If men are constantly accused of being obsessed with youth, women can be as well.groink wrote: On the other hand, I feel that females in Japan have some sort of disorder in their head when it comes to entertainment. Maybe they're wheened on too much anime or something... I still haven't pinned down exactly what gets Japanese females "off", but I have to say it isn't masculinity. ANY Johnny's member under the age of 20 do not carry the traits we Americans define as being masculine. They take on the same physical attributes of a female. They're pretty! They're beautiful! They like kittens... They like cuttling... They like hugging other males. They cry... They have absolutely no muscle tone to their arms. And they're skinny! Look at NEWS... They're teenyboppers, but they already look like queers, I'm sorry to say... Take that back, I'm not sorry about it! They do look like queers!!! Try comparing them to InSync or any other American boy band. American boy band members look like young men. Japanese boy band members look like girls with an Adam's apple in their throats.
How do these females get arroused to pretty, beautiful or cute? How are females supposed to masturbate to these males when they look more like their girlfriends or kabuki actors????
--- groink
Very interesting! This reminds me of several articles I've read over the last couple of years, as well as a couple I've written myself. Basically, patriarchy is actually destroying the Japanese society in several ways. In one way, more and more Japanese women are attracted to non-Japanese men.GhstDreamer wrote:I think why these very adrogynous and effeminate male celebrities are adored is simply because they look so much like females and act so much like girls that they are non-threatening to a mostly female fanbase. Japan being a patriarchal society (more so than North America), masculinity becomes a threat or at the very least leaves a woman/girl feeling the sense of under empowerment. In that sense, extreme femininity in men can become very appealing and arousing.
In several article I've read, there's even a movement where Japanese women are attracted to Korean men. Basically, the idea is that Korean males are brought up to be more sensitive to females. Is this true, I have no idea because I know absolutely nothing about Korean culture/society. This may lead to reasons why Korean dramas, for example, are written in a way where the men demonstrate more sensitivity for women. And women outside of Korea may find that more attractive than Japanese dramas. For years, in both Japanese dramas and Japanese culture in general, the men don't show the amount of affection Japanese women want them to show. There's even a phrase they say in Japanese, "Suki to ittandakara mou iiyo," which basically means "I said I love you, so that’s that." IMHO, you can be very romantic and sensitive to a woman's needs, AND still maintain that western masculinity trait.
With all that, it never occured to me that a Japanese female may feel threatened by a Japanese male being too strong an authorative figure. Like I said earlier, this just started less than ten years ago in the geinokai.
Well, women definitely are trying to maintain their youth, which is why I personally find even Japanese women in their 20's to be somewhat childish, and a total turn-off for my taste. But these androgynous men - the question I would ask is what came first? Did Johnny start this craze and the females ended up liking it? Are the boys themselves androgynous? Did the females demand androgynous boys and Johnny delivered?GhstDreamer wrote:My only other assumption to why there's an obsession with adrogynous males can also go back to an obsession with youth...all things young are naturally cute and much more attractive...and a man who shows any sense of masculinity is now grown-up (an adult), therefore unattractive and not appealing. If men are constantly accused of being obsessed with youth, women can be as well.
Back to the topic at-hand, I highly doubt this androgynous image of males will be accepted well in mainstream America. Like I've said, both men and women in America have certain expectations when it comes to male entertainers. And both of them expect their male figures to retain a masculine image rather than one of feminity unless the role requires such a trait. IMHO, these Japanese artists, both male and female, must drop the cutesy image and obtain an image that is more accepted to Americans. Rain has the image. Matsuda Seiko has the image. Even Utada has the image. So it can be done, but is Johnny interested in reaching Americans. I say he doesn't. Solution for all you Japanese males in Japan: STAY AWAY FROM JOHNNY'S! Join a talent agency that will allow you FULL creativity freedom, and one that is willing to help you reach international stardom.
--- groink
Both of you have very interesting views, I have nothing to add to what ghst dreamer has previously said. I just would like to react to Groink interrogation, that is if Johnny initiated the androgynous trend. I personnaly think it's not the case. I don't know if you guys know about visual kei(or visual rock). It's a music trend which occured in Japan in the late 80's. The most influential group were if I'm not mistaken X-Japan and Luna sea, and its characteristics were that the members of these groups wore a lot of make-up and were very androgynous, with long hair etc...Their style of music is really far from Johnny's"politicaly correct"j-pop, so I don't think it's him who initiated this. My opinion is that ghst-dreamer is completely right when he said that if japanese women loves effeminate males, it's an answer to Japan's patriarchal society, and that thus, they don't feel threatened.groink wrote:Very interesting! This reminds me of several articles I've read over the last couple of years, as well as a couple I've written myself. Basically, patriarchy is actually destroying the Japanese society in several ways. In one way, more and more Japanese women are attracted to non-Japanese men.GhstDreamer wrote:I think why these very adrogynous and effeminate male celebrities are adored is simply because they look so much like females and act so much like girls that they are non-threatening to a mostly female fanbase. Japan being a patriarchal society (more so than North America), masculinity becomes a threat or at the very least leaves a woman/girl feeling the sense of under empowerment. In that sense, extreme femininity in men can become very appealing and arousing.
In several article I've read, there's even a movement where Japanese women are attracted to Korean men. Basically, the idea is that Korean males are brought up to be more sensitive to females. Is this true, I have no idea because I know absolutely nothing about Korean culture/society. This may lead to reasons why Korean dramas, for example, are written in a way where the men demonstrate more sensitivity for women. And women outside of Korea may find that more attractive than Japanese dramas. For years, in both Japanese dramas and Japanese culture in general, the men don't show the amount of affection Japanese women want them to show. There's even a phrase they say in Japanese, "Suki to ittandakara mou iiyo," which basically means "I said I love you, so that’s that." IMHO, you can be very romantic and sensitive to a woman's needs, AND still maintain that western masculinity trait.
With all that, it never occured to me that a Japanese female may feel threatened by a Japanese male being too strong an authorative figure. Like I said earlier, this just started less than ten years ago in the geinokai.
Well, women definitely are trying to maintain their youth, which is why I personally find even Japanese women in their 20's to be somewhat childish, and a total turn-off for my taste. But these androgynous men - the question I would ask is what came first? Did Johnny start this craze and the females ended up liking it? Are the boys themselves androgynous? Did the females demand androgynous boys and Johnny delivered?GhstDreamer wrote:My only other assumption to why there's an obsession with adrogynous males can also go back to an obsession with youth...all things young are naturally cute and much more attractive...and a man who shows any sense of masculinity is now grown-up (an adult), therefore unattractive and not appealing. If men are constantly accused of being obsessed with youth, women can be as well.
Back to the topic at-hand, I highly doubt this androgynous image of males will be accepted well in mainstream America. Like I've said, both men and women in America have certain expectations when it comes to male entertainers. And both of them expect their male figures to retain a masculine image rather than one of feminity unless the role requires such a trait. IMHO, these Japanese artists, both male and female, must drop the cutesy image and obtain an image that is more accepted to Americans. Rain has the image. Matsuda Seiko has the image. Even Utada has the image. So it can be done, but is Johnny interested in reaching Americans. I say he doesn't. Solution for all you Japanese males in Japan: STAY AWAY FROM JOHNNY'S! Join a talent agency that will allow you FULL creativity freedom, and one that is willing to help you reach international stardom.
--- groink
Now, concerning the issue if japanese artists can success in US, and why not in the rest of the world, my point is: why should they?I mean , they don't have concerts in the States and it's quite difficult to find their CD's in Virgin or HMV but that didn't prevent us to know them all the same. I'm afraid that if it happens, it would be because they had to compromise, ie sing in english, playing the average pop-rock music(you'll answer me for most of them, it's already the case). i'm afraid they'll lose their originality to hit in the states.In addition, the american market seems to be very difficult and many artists from all over the worlds have tried and failed: Robbie Williams is one of the example i have in mind, whereas he is really huge in his own country. so why bother?It's true that in this era of globalization, many artists are tempted to be acknowledged in other countries, but if such thing happens, I think it will happen through non-traditionnal way, that is to say, thanks to the web. Internet is a good way, because artists are thus not forced to "compromise" and people won't buy their albums because they heard it countless time on tv or radio.When you want to hit outside your territory, it means that you have to adapt to the audience you want to please, and I am personnaly afraid it means a kind of betrayal to what you used to be as an artist. It's particularly true for asian artists because nowadays to me internationnally known, you have to be fluent in english. Anglo-saxons are advantaged because english is the predominant language and american culture have been widely adopted(not critiscism here),but things could be far more difficult for asian artists. it's not that I think they don't deserve international fame, my point is just that international fame is not(and should not) be the ultimate accomplishment for an artist, and a carrer should not be based on achieving this goal.
Let me clarify one thing here... Visual Kei is purely a "visual fashion style", much like other styles like grunge. Johnny's on the other hand take it several notches up, and literally turn these guys into flipping queers! Visual Kei doesn't involve guys hugging each other, crying over the stupidist of things, or acting feminine. That's my point here... Androgynous males and visual kei are two completely different things. You may think they're one in the same, but they're not. You don't see Gackt and HYDE acting faggish.nadesico wrote:Both of you have very interesting views, I have nothing to add to what ghst dreamer has previously said. I just would like to react to Groink interrogation, that is if Johnny initiated the androgynous trend. I personnaly think it's not the case. I don't know if you guys know about visual kei(or visual rock). It's a music trend which occured in Japan in the late 80's. The most influential group were if I'm not mistaken X-Japan and Luna sea, and its characteristics were that the members of these groups wore a lot of make-up and were very androgynous, with long hair etc...Their style of music is really far from Johnny's"politicaly correct"j-pop, so I don't think it's him who initiated this. My opinion is that ghst-dreamer is completely right when he said that if japanese women loves effeminate males, it's an answer to Japan's patriarchal society, and that thus, they don't feel threatened.
--- groink
I totally see your point here groink.I was being general when I mentionned visual Kei as an example confirming ghst-dreamer's theory concerning why effeminate males are popular in Japan.I agree with you when you say you'll never see Hyde or Yoshiki acting girlish(I don't dare imagining that!!), I just think that the Johnny's trend is the latest (some wouldl say the worst)developpent of this aspect of Japanese society.For my own defence, I must admit that I'm quite new to the whole Johnny's thing, and it never occured to me that their behaviour were"calculated" to be effeminate.groink wrote:Let me clarify one thing here... Visual Kei is purely a "visual fashion style", much like other styles like grunge. Johnny's on the other hand take it several notches up, and literally turn these guys into flipping queers! Visual Kei doesn't involve guys hugging each other, crying over the stupidist of things, or acting feminine. That's my point here... Androgynous males and visual kei are two completely different things. You may think they're one in the same, but they're not. You don't see Gackt and HYDE acting faggish.nadesico wrote:Both of you have very interesting views, I have nothing to add to what ghst dreamer has previously said. I just would like to react to Groink interrogation, that is if Johnny initiated the androgynous trend. I personnaly think it's not the case. I don't know if you guys know about visual kei(or visual rock). It's a music trend which occured in Japan in the late 80's. The most influential group were if I'm not mistaken X-Japan and Luna sea, and its characteristics were that the members of these groups wore a lot of make-up and were very androgynous, with long hair etc...Their style of music is really far from Johnny's"politicaly correct"j-pop, so I don't think it's him who initiated this. My opinion is that ghst-dreamer is completely right when he said that if japanese women loves effeminate males, it's an answer to Japan's patriarchal society, and that thus, they don't feel threatened.
--- groink
I heard that Johnny has been previously charged for sexual harrasment on some artists, so maybe the reason why all johnny's artists are that way is becausse he is a little obsessed with young boys.Correct me if I am wrong, but Johnny's ent. only raises boys, doesn't he?what amazed me is the way he "uses" them during all their chilhood and adulthood, I think that's quite scary, Johnny's jimusho appears sometimes to me as a sect!
You're correct. Johnny only raises boys. LOL! I like your choice of words there... "raise" is so fitting in this situation. I personally believe all the stories about Johnny simply because it makes logical sense.nadesico wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but Johnny's ent. only raises boys, doesn't he?what amazed me is the way he "uses" them during all their chilhood and adulthood, I think that's quite scary, Johnny's jimusho appears sometimes to me as a sect!
You're probably right to question why Japanese artists want to break into the US market. I mean, what is wrong with just enjoying success in Japan?nadesico wrote:Now, concerning the issue if japanese artists can success in US, and why not in the rest of the world, my point is: why should they?
It is a fact that the Japanese look up to the US as being the land of gold, milk and honey. While many other countries around the world look negatively upon the US, the US does serve as a model where you can fully express yourself artistically, and receive HUGE compensations for your efforts. Like I've mentioned in other topics, the structure of the geinokai is for the corporations to literally use artists as pawns, and to take HUGE percentages of all revenue, while giving the artists a tiny little salary that can barely afford a decent home in Tokyo. Ito Yuna is a great example of this... Despite her huge success with SONY, her apartment in Tokyo is TINY. And I have a problem with that.
Many anti-RIAA opponents will claim that the US recording industry is also a total rip-off when it comes to sharing the revenue. Despite all of that, the artists ARE compensated very well. And it should be that way IMHO. Christina Aguillera more likely makes way more money than even the richest of recording artists in Japan.
In another topic, I explained that the Japanese artist looks at his art more of a business than an artform. Which explains why they don't mind the structure of the geinokai, and the fact that the talent agencies aren't really training them to be great actors and recording artists. As long as they receive a paycheck, they just don't give a sh*t about their quality of work. That's a FACT. But not all Japanese artists are like that. Someone of them are TRUE artists, and want to really express themselves creatively. The geinokai, however, is interfering with their artistic expressions.
Bringing Johnny's back into the subject, do the boys REALLY like living the queer image? I can't believe for a second that they do. However, because of the way the geinokai is structured, you either become a Johnny or you won't be a star. Because of Johnny's strength and monopoly in the recording and TV industries, a Japanese boy joining any other talent agency is basically suicide for his career. For example, let's say Talent Agency X gets you a guest appearance gig with MUSIC STATION. If a Johnny member is also in the guest list, Johnny will literally PULL his "employees" out of the line-up. To keep the Johnny's on the show, MUSIC STATION will then tell Talent Agency X to go take a hike, and you're basically out of a gig. This is a FACT, and it has happened quite a number of times, with documentation to back it up.
So with all that geinokai bullsh*t going on over there, wouldn't you like to crack into the US market? Bring up Ito Yuna one more time, her songs are quite popular among the Japanese. However, she's trained to sing R&B music with the stylings of Mariah Carey. She's mentioned that one or more of her songs really don't interest her artistically. And I can see why... Simply, SONY has her entire career planned, with the song selections strategically picked out to fit a certain image. I REALLY would like to listen to her belt out a Mariah Carey song because she really can. But that style of music is not in SONY's grand plan for her. Therefore, she's stuck singing these bubble-gum songs.
So in summary, the US market is every TRUE Japanese artist's dream. You can express yourself creatively without any strings or grand plans. And make a sh*t load of money for yourself.
--- groink
I heard that Johnny has been previously charged for sexual harrasment on some artists, so maybe the reason why all johnny's artists are that way is becausse he is a little obsessed with young boys.Correct me if I am wrong, but Johnny's ent. only raises boys, doesn't he?what amazed me is the way he "uses" them during all their chilhood and adulthood, I think that's quite scary, Johnny's jimusho appears sometimes to me as a sect![/quote]
This whole Johnny's boy thing I find a little wierd, but that just plain freaks me out. I never thought about it like that, and now...ugh...I can't even comment further on that.
Anyways, I find this thread very interesting, groink and ghst-dreamer make some good points though. It makes me wonder more about the fascination with effeminate males in japan. I don't know when it started. Though, a lot of japanese men just seem androynous to me, and so a lot of them could pass for women even without trying. I mean, some of my classmates and my parents who have seen a picture of Gackt or Hyde think they are women at first glance and freak out when I say they are men. And for me, I think Gackt has to be one of the more masculine type of men amongst the other male japanese artists, so I thought that was strange.
this is kind of off topic though...whether or not japanese music will be a success in america, why even give a damn? I think what they have going on now is pretty good, with companies like tofu records making the music more easily available to the us fanbase. I think it would be really difficult for a japanese artist to break into the american mainstream market because of what groink and other people were discussing about the differences in tastes and culture. But why should it matter?
Also...I've noticed that with the growing fanbase for japanese music might be related to the growing fanbase for anime. I mean, a lot of the musicians that have performed here (well, the major ones in japan) performed at anime cons (Dir en grey and the more underground j-bands are the exceptions) So as long as there's a fanbase for anime, there'll be a fanbase for j-music. And the bigger the fanbase grows, the more musicians will come to perform here.
This is just my observation at least.
This whole Johnny's boy thing I find a little wierd, but that just plain freaks me out. I never thought about it like that, and now...ugh...I can't even comment further on that.
Anyways, I find this thread very interesting, groink and ghst-dreamer make some good points though. It makes me wonder more about the fascination with effeminate males in japan. I don't know when it started. Though, a lot of japanese men just seem androynous to me, and so a lot of them could pass for women even without trying. I mean, some of my classmates and my parents who have seen a picture of Gackt or Hyde think they are women at first glance and freak out when I say they are men. And for me, I think Gackt has to be one of the more masculine type of men amongst the other male japanese artists, so I thought that was strange.
this is kind of off topic though...whether or not japanese music will be a success in america, why even give a damn? I think what they have going on now is pretty good, with companies like tofu records making the music more easily available to the us fanbase. I think it would be really difficult for a japanese artist to break into the american mainstream market because of what groink and other people were discussing about the differences in tastes and culture. But why should it matter?
Also...I've noticed that with the growing fanbase for japanese music might be related to the growing fanbase for anime. I mean, a lot of the musicians that have performed here (well, the major ones in japan) performed at anime cons (Dir en grey and the more underground j-bands are the exceptions) So as long as there's a fanbase for anime, there'll be a fanbase for j-music. And the bigger the fanbase grows, the more musicians will come to perform here.
This is just my observation at least.
when you put it that way, it makes sense.groink wrote:You're correct. Johnny only raises boys. LOL! I like your choice of words there... "raise" is so fitting in this situation. I personally believe all the stories about Johnny simply because it makes logical sense.nadesico wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but Johnny's ent. only raises boys, doesn't he?what amazed me is the way he "uses" them during all their chilhood and adulthood, I think that's quite scary, Johnny's jimusho appears sometimes to me as a sect!
You're probably right to question why Japanese artists want to break into the US market. I mean, what is wrong with just enjoying success in Japan?nadesico wrote:Now, concerning the issue if japanese artists can success in US, and why not in the rest of the world, my point is: why should they?
It is a fact that the Japanese look up to the US as being the land of gold, milk and honey. While many other countries around the world look negatively upon the US, the US does serve as a model where you can fully express yourself artistically, and receive HUGE compensations for your efforts. Like I've mentioned in other topics, the structure of the geinokai is for the corporations to literally use artists as pawns, and to take HUGE percentages of all revenue, while giving the artists a tiny little salary that can barely afford a decent home in Tokyo. Ito Yuna is a great example of this... Despite her huge success with SONY, her apartment in Tokyo is TINY. And I have a problem with that.
Many anti-RIAA opponents will claim that the US recording industry is also a total rip-off when it comes to sharing the revenue. Despite all of that, the artists ARE compensated very well. And it should be that way IMHO. Christina Aguillera more likely makes way more money than even the richest of recording artists in Japan.
In another topic, I explained that the Japanese artist looks at his art more of a business than an artform. Which explains why they don't mind the structure of the geinokai, and the fact that the talent agencies aren't really training them to be great actors and recording artists. As long as they receive a paycheck, they just don't give a sh*t about their quality of work. That's a FACT. But not all Japanese artists are like that. Someone of them are TRUE artists, and want to really express themselves creatively. The geinokai, however, is interfering with their artistic expressions.
Bringing Johnny's back into the subject, do the boys REALLY like living the queer image? I can't believe for a second that they do. However, because of the way the geinokai is structured, you either become a Johnny or you won't be a star. Because of Johnny's strength and monopoly in the recording and TV industries, a Japanese boy joining any other talent agency is basically suicide for his career. For example, let's say Talent Agency X gets you a guest appearance gig with MUSIC STATION. If a Johnny member is also in the guest list, Johnny will literally PULL his "employees" out of the line-up. To keep the Johnny's on the show, MUSIC STATION will then tell Talent Agency X to go take a hike, and you're basically out of a gig. This is a FACT, and it has happened quite a number of times, with documentation to back it up.
So with all that geinokai bullsh*t going on over there, wouldn't you like to crack into the US market? Bring up Ito Yuna one more time, her songs are quite popular among the Japanese. However, she's trained to sing R&B music with the stylings of Mariah Carey. She's mentioned that one or more of her songs really don't interest her artistically. And I can see why... Simply, SONY has her entire career planned, with the song selections strategically picked out to fit a certain image. I REALLY would like to listen to her belt out a Mariah Carey song because she really can. But that style of music is not in SONY's grand plan for her. Therefore, she's stuck singing these bubble-gum songs.
So in summary, the US market is every TRUE Japanese artist's dream. You can express yourself creatively without any strings or grand plans. And make a sh*t load of money for yourself.
--- groink
whenever I hear about why would the japanese bother being successful in america when they have alot of success in japan, I can't help but feel a bit ticked. I guess I just really hate hearing about the business side of the music industry. For me, I prefer to hear a japanese artist wanting to perform outside of japan not to achieve more fame and fortune, but because they want their music to be heard. Musicians like Yoshiki who appreciate not just their Japanese fans but recognize their non-japanese fans as well and want to perform for them.
though I never thought about them wanting to use the american market to express themselves more freely and creatively. I'm not really informed on how the music industry works in america or japan, but from what I've seen and heard, a lot of the mainstream japanese artists seem really controlled by the companies. I remember at animenext convention I just attended this year. Despairs Ray holding a photoshoot for american fans. It seems like it would be really cool but I felt like they were being used like freakin toys or something. I mean, they stood there in the same pose as 100+ american fans dashed in and out to have themselves in a picture with the band.
Interesting you brought up the anime cons. A couple of women from Hawaii visited the last one in San Diego. We then had a roundtable this past week discussing what they saw. To them, the anime cons are slowly focusing LESS on the anime itself and MORE on the OSTs and the cosplay. To summarize, they described it more of a concert atmosphere than an anime convention. A few years ago, I attended one of these anime cons, and it had the atmosphere of a comic book convention (I'm a comic book collector.) So for the atmosphere to change that much, that says a lot... I've always said that anime had NOTHING to do with Japanese culture. It's interesting to note that, although the American companies dub the crap out of the Japanese anime, the music still retains the original Japanese lyrics. Which tells me that, in all honesty, the OST is all about the feeling you get from the music, and NOTHING to do with the lyrics. Same thing with Japanese dramas and their OSTs. With that in mind, the Japanese recording artists would be fine just as long as they stick with anime OSTs. There are many Japanese artists who ONLY sing anime OSTs and nothing else. If they consider that route to be their only path to the US market, then so be it.hisa wrote:Also...I've noticed that with the growing fanbase for japanese music might be related to the growing fanbase for anime. I mean, a lot of the musicians that have performed here (well, the major ones in japan) performed at anime cons (Dir en grey and the more underground j-bands are the exceptions) So as long as there's a fanbase for anime, there'll be a fanbase for j-music. And the bigger the fanbase grows, the more musicians will come to perform here.
This is just my observation at least.
--- groink
This whole Johnny's boy thing I find a little wierd, but that just plain freaks me out. I never thought about it like that, and now...ugh...I can't even comment further on that.hisa wrote:I heard that Johnny has been previously charged for sexual harrasment on some artists, so maybe the reason why all johnny's artists are that way is becausse he is a little obsessed with young boys.Correct me if I am wrong, but Johnny's ent. only raises boys, doesn't he?what amazed me is the way he "uses" them during all their chilhood and adulthood, I think that's quite scary, Johnny's jimusho appears sometimes to me as a sect!
Anyways, I find this thread very interesting, groink and ghst-dreamer make some good points though. It makes me wonder more about the fascination with effeminate males in japan. I don't know when it started. Though, a lot of japanese men just seem androynous to me, and so a lot of them could pass for women even without trying. I mean, some of my classmates and my parents who have seen a picture of Gackt or Hyde think they are women at first glance and freak out when I say they are men. And for me, I think Gackt has to be one of the more masculine type of men amongst the other male japanese artists, so I thought that was strange.
this is kind of off topic though...whether or not japanese music will be a success in america, why even give a damn? I think what they have going on now is pretty good, with companies like tofu records making the music more easily available to the us fanbase. I think it would be really difficult for a japanese artist to break into the american mainstream market because of what groink and other people were discussing about the differences in tastes and culture. But why should it matter?
Also...I've noticed that with the growing fanbase for japanese music might be related to the growing fanbase for anime. I mean, a lot of the musicians that have performed here (well, the major ones in japan) performed at anime cons (Dir en grey and the more underground j-bands are the exceptions) So as long as there's a fanbase for anime, there'll be a fanbase for j-music. And the bigger the fanbase grows, the more musicians will come to perform here.
This is just my observation at least.[/quote]
You're quite right hisa; i live in france and a month ago a huge convention took place called Japan expo and there were japanese groups which performed for an anime oriented audience. in addition Artists like Akino arai(famous for her collaboration with Yoko Kanno for anime soundtracks) and Kokia held concerts in France this year, which is quite exceptionnal considering they NEVER performed outside their country before. The french situation is really particular because France is the SECOND counsumer of japanese cultural goods in the world(comics,films etc...), so needless to say ther's alreazdy a ground for japanese artist to hit in our country. But hitting the french market is not very interesting!
Concerning your statements Groink, I could never have imagined that hitting in the States could be for some artists a gateway from the Geinokai system, I didn't know the situation was so bad in Japan.I don't think such thing could be possible because even though there are a lot of differents musical trends in the States,it doesn't seem to have the actual market for them.
I think U.S. celebrities are WAY overpaid. Celebrities may be beautiful and talented, but in the end they're just actors, singers, ENTERTAINERS. It's amazing how a singer can earn more than the nation's top brain surgeon. That is ridiculous. Just because they look glamourous on tv, doesn't mean their paycheck deserves to be as glamorous. So the Japanese entertainment business actually make more sense than the U.S. entertainment circle. Artists aren't saving lives, so why should their paychecks be so over the top?
that's a question I ask, and forever will ask, for the rest of my life.TNF wrote:I think U.S. celebrities are WAY overpaid. Celebrities may be beautiful and talented, but in the end they're just actors, singers, ENTERTAINERS. It's amazing how a singer can earn more than the nation's top brain surgeon. That is ridiculous. Just because they look glamourous on tv, doesn't mean their paycheck deserves to be as glamorous. So the Japanese entertainment business actually make more sense than the U.S. entertainment circle. Artists aren't saving lives, so why should their paychecks be so over the top?
there are some things I ask 'why?' and give up and resolve on the fact that in the end, our society is just messed up.
To clear one thing up, the US artists are NOT on a salary like the Japanese artists. This is the point that is very important to understand. Your idea of a person's pay should be based on the value of that person's skill level. And you think that the skills of a medical doctor is deserved a more than average paycheck. That may be so for salaried workers. But again, US artists are NOT on a salary basis. So you cannot compare artists to salaried workers.TNF wrote:I think U.S. celebrities are WAY overpaid. Celebrities may be beautiful and talented, but in the end they're just actors, singers, ENTERTAINERS. It's amazing how a singer can earn more than the nation's top brain surgeon. That is ridiculous. Just because they look glamourous on tv, doesn't mean their paycheck deserves to be as glamorous. So the Japanese entertainment business actually make more sense than the U.S. entertainment circle. Artists aren't saving lives, so why should their paychecks be so over the top?
The reason why US artists get paid a lot is because THEY have control of their own careers, and that the money they receive are through contracts. Their talent agencies are there to help them negociate deals, and the artist is the boss of the talent agency. The artist receives a majority percentage of the revenue obtained from the contract, and the rest is given to the talent agency and everyone else.
Why do you have a problem with that? You think that the talent agencies are the ones who produce the talent. When you listen to a SONY CD, do you hear SONY? f*** no! You hear the artist!!!!! The artist is the one who MAKES the product. All SONY does is handle the promotions and manufacturer the CDs. If you took the artist's vocals and music away from the CD, what do you have left? A blank CD!!!!!
It's clear you don't understand the economics of the music industry, and think artists make absolutely no worthy contributions and have little or no value in society. People aren't standing in line handing these artists money. In both Japan and the US, the money is received through CD and concert revenue. And now you'd probably say that the US charges A LOT OF MONEY for CDs. As a matter off fact, CDs and concerts in Japan are MORE EXPENSIVE than in the US, despite the fact that the artists receive a small salary.
Using your analogy of a medical doctor, the doctor saves lives. Artists make people happy!!!! Happy people is quite healthy IMHO. Entertainment is very important to society. If you took entertainment out of a society, to me life would be worth ****. You may still think that artists should be paid like burger flippers, but I'm willing to spend thousands of dollars out of my pocket every year for entertainment produced by these artists. I've paid $500 just for a seat in a music concert, and I've never for once given the thought that I may be getting ripped off. I don't look at it that way.
This is just one piece of logic produced by people who think everyone should be paid **** to keep prices lower. Despite your dislike for capitalism, it is here to stay. So while you're alive, take total advantage of the resources and opportunities you have in front of you, rather than trying to fight the system.
--- groink
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groink wrote: It is a fact that the Japanese look up to the US as being the land of gold, milk and honey. While many other countries around the world look negatively upon the US, the US does serve as a model where you can fully express yourself artistically, and receive HUGE compensations for your efforts.
Just like Jackie Chan - sure he had international fame and a boatload of money but cracking the US market was the biggest goal and he achieved it. His American movies consist of pure sh*t but it means more money and more fame and really that's what's more important. Every artist (be it singer or actor) wants fame and money - a singer is not going to record a song and just be happy that one or two people will enjoy it or buy it...an artist does not produce works for oneself but for others.groink wrote: So in summary, the US market is every TRUE Japanese artist's dream. You can express yourself creatively without any strings or grand plans. And make a sh*t load of money for yourself.
I have to admit I don't really care that much if Japanese music makes it to North America even though I love J-Rock and J-Pop. My only concern about Asian artists (domestic or foreign) is the lack of credibility they receive from the general public simply because they are of Asian ethnicity. I love a lot of songs by Lee Hom but I hate the fact that as an American citizen he has to go to Taiwan to become recognize for his music and this happens a lot to other Asian artists as well.
I believe anime will continue to remain a niche market (with the exception of Pokemon and Dragonball - since then there has not been a single breakout hit (even Naruto's appeal is nowhere near the previous two anime series)) - and so anime music will continue to be a niche market and if most people are introduced to J-Pop through anime music, then it will always remain small and going mainstream is almost unreachable. J-Pop/J-Rock on the whole will mostly have their fandom at anime conventions.hisa wrote: Also...I've noticed that with the growing fanbase for japanese music might be related to the growing fanbase for anime. I mean, a lot of the musicians that have performed here (well, the major ones in japan) performed at anime cons (Dir en grey and the more underground j-bands are the exceptions) So as long as there's a fanbase for anime, there'll be a fanbase for j-music. And the bigger the fanbase grows, the more musicians will come to perform here.
This is just my observation at least.
Society in general values entertainers more than neruosurgeons, teachers, researchers, etc., and people are willing to pay the money to see them at a concert, movie, cd, etc. but **** when there's talk about teachers getting a pay raise or when a little bit of more money goes into research funding...That's how we know what most people value...it's not necessarily wrong, it's just what people value...for example I had a student who needed new colour pencils, but his parents refused because they didn't have any money but they had the money to watch a movie....TNF wrote: Artists aren't saving lives, so why should their paychecks be so over the top?
Last edited by GhstDreamer on Aug 18th, '06, 23:10, edited 1 time in total.
I would agree with Hisa and TNF on the fact that artists can be considered sometimes are overpaid, but the thing is, unfortunately, in the society in which all of us live, be in The Sates or elsewhere , it is not someone's usefulness to this same society which matters and which decides the amount of their salaries.The thing is, if you don't want to support such a system, you are free not to buy concert tickets or CDs, except for the artists you like and in this case, there is no problem.
concerning your remarks Groink, I think it's a little harsh when you say it is no use to fight the system. It is not because capitalism has been adopted world wide that no better system exists , and it's always good when some people question concepts or express their disagreement. Capitalism may last for another century, but in the end, perhaps another system will arise, who knows? It sounds maybe like an utopia, but questionning concepts is what keeps men alive and make humanity move forward.
concerning your remarks Groink, I think it's a little harsh when you say it is no use to fight the system. It is not because capitalism has been adopted world wide that no better system exists , and it's always good when some people question concepts or express their disagreement. Capitalism may last for another century, but in the end, perhaps another system will arise, who knows? It sounds maybe like an utopia, but questionning concepts is what keeps men alive and make humanity move forward.
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There are so many issues concerning the success of an asian popstar. It's the image, the English accent, the ability to understand American culture, and most importantly the music. But the one thing that no one else has seemed to mention is the fact that Asian language is NOT a romantic language. I'm speaking mainly of Spanish, Italian, French, etc. (and although English isn't part of that category, it is the dominant language). To even speak in these languages is considered pleasant sounding, soft and sexy, which is why they soley have taken on success in the Americas more easily, than any other language than lets say... German and Chinese.
Actually, to be more exact, the Spanish have taken more success for very good reason. First of all, they have incredible sex appeal (ex. Shakira, JLo), but they also have their own CULTURAL MUSIC that is MARKETABLE. I'm talking about latino music; the hot beats and danceable flavor with a language that just screams sex. That does not mean to say that music should scream sex, but I'm speaking in terms of cultural revolution, the spanish have provided that kind of need for sex appeal that can thrive in American popular music.
If we use the example of Spanish success and apply it to Asia's LACK of success, then we can conclude that what we are missing is, not just the language barrier, but the sex appeal that comes with the language, and CULTURAL PRIDE. If you notice very closely, while Asian's are trying to find their independence in music, they also stray from their OWN culture, by making their music very western (ex. UTADA HIKARU, and every other asian popstar there is). In other words they try too hard to be Americanized, which gives us a no win situation. It's almost a paradox.
I think Asians can succeed in the business, but they need to have the whole package; the music, the image, the right American accent, and the confidence to put Asian Cultural Music OUT THERE. Remember Christina Milian's song Dip It Low, that is what I'm talking about. She's not even asian! and it didn't shy away from that wonderful Asian flavour that makes our culture just amazing... but we could probably do with a little less skanky lyrics If artists have that lingering fear of being inferior, Superior America can and will knock them down.
Actually, to be more exact, the Spanish have taken more success for very good reason. First of all, they have incredible sex appeal (ex. Shakira, JLo), but they also have their own CULTURAL MUSIC that is MARKETABLE. I'm talking about latino music; the hot beats and danceable flavor with a language that just screams sex. That does not mean to say that music should scream sex, but I'm speaking in terms of cultural revolution, the spanish have provided that kind of need for sex appeal that can thrive in American popular music.
If we use the example of Spanish success and apply it to Asia's LACK of success, then we can conclude that what we are missing is, not just the language barrier, but the sex appeal that comes with the language, and CULTURAL PRIDE. If you notice very closely, while Asian's are trying to find their independence in music, they also stray from their OWN culture, by making their music very western (ex. UTADA HIKARU, and every other asian popstar there is). In other words they try too hard to be Americanized, which gives us a no win situation. It's almost a paradox.
I think Asians can succeed in the business, but they need to have the whole package; the music, the image, the right American accent, and the confidence to put Asian Cultural Music OUT THERE. Remember Christina Milian's song Dip It Low, that is what I'm talking about. She's not even asian! and it didn't shy away from that wonderful Asian flavour that makes our culture just amazing... but we could probably do with a little less skanky lyrics If artists have that lingering fear of being inferior, Superior America can and will knock them down.
well asian music could be successful in america... if 1. the asian population is large enough... i dont know the numbers right now but i think its about 5 percent... 2. if the asian artist can sing in english cuz face it a lot of people in the us would be able to understand it and thus not be able to sing to it... 3. everyone stop downloading... face it... no one really buys cds anymore... the cd player is slowly becoming obsolete...
oh yea and to the comment about the asian language not being a romantic language the only reason french italian and spanish are considered romantic languages is because they were derived from latin... and even then its not romantic but more Romance.. there is a difference... i think asian language is great... i especially love the korean language as its very soft... and spanish music is popular cuz we have a large latin american populatino in the us and not to mention that their countries are very close to the us...
oh yea and to the comment about the asian language not being a romantic language the only reason french italian and spanish are considered romantic languages is because they were derived from latin... and even then its not romantic but more Romance.. there is a difference... i think asian language is great... i especially love the korean language as its very soft... and spanish music is popular cuz we have a large latin american populatino in the us and not to mention that their countries are very close to the us...
it's racism, i knew a guy i worked with that loved Japanese gaming. loved it! but when it came to Chinese or Japanese Metal music, he would mock it just because of the accents, he would go out of his way to insult them as if it was the most awful thing he ever heard just based on the sound of their actual language. and if you take into consideration just how long it took westerners to accept the high quality and standards of Japanese automobiles and other asian products, then i think it's really no surprise at all that the last barrier to be broken will be the language barrier. Americans and British are so used to being viewed as the industrial leaders and role models and having the world cater to that world view of English dominating stereotypes. English is a very universal and easy language to assimilate to on a global international level, much more so than Chinese for example, which is incredibly hard to master. so i don't think the English language will ever lose it's dominance on the international level, but i think in time, with the rise of The People's Republic Of China hopefully the world will start to open and learn to respect other forms of music. JPop and KPop are just variations of very western influenced music themes for the most part, they aren't traditional asian forms at all, they are very western... but only very open-minded people are willing to give it a listening to, most people are still racist, and they would say something hateful like, "screw that lame asian **it, give me some Led Zeppelin man!" it's to be expected most of the time unless they are more open to a broader world view.
What about if the artist doesn't want "international stardom", but just feels content working in Japan, singing for an audience that understands what he/she is trying to express? (and if someone from another country likes it, that's okay too.) Does an artist need to be known worldwide in order to be famous? I just wanted to throw this question out there.
I have no problem with Japanese artist coming to the US to make it big here as well. US citizens need more exposure to other cultures. But will Japanese music become mainstream? No. It would be nice but it's not going to happen anytime soon. If you don't even take the time to try to understand a culture that is different from yours, then there's no way that you would be able to appreciate music produced by that culture. Most people are too busy with their own lives to care enough to learn something outside of what they already know.
I was born and raised in the US and find a couple of Johnny's "boys" to be attractive. I see nothing wrong with fact that they are "cute" and think that's what's appealing about them. The whole "queer" act is just that, an act to gain an audience. Every culture has its own idea of masculinity and attractiveness, and that changes from generation to generation. I was not trying to come off as some hardcore fan, but I guess I did.
I have no problem with Japanese artist coming to the US to make it big here as well. US citizens need more exposure to other cultures. But will Japanese music become mainstream? No. It would be nice but it's not going to happen anytime soon. If you don't even take the time to try to understand a culture that is different from yours, then there's no way that you would be able to appreciate music produced by that culture. Most people are too busy with their own lives to care enough to learn something outside of what they already know.
I was born and raised in the US and find a couple of Johnny's "boys" to be attractive. I see nothing wrong with fact that they are "cute" and think that's what's appealing about them. The whole "queer" act is just that, an act to gain an audience. Every culture has its own idea of masculinity and attractiveness, and that changes from generation to generation. I was not trying to come off as some hardcore fan, but I guess I did.
As will J-pop. J-pop will probably remain as a niche market also.GhstDreamer wrote:I believe anime will continue to remain a niche market (with the exception of Pokemon and Dragonball - since then there has not been a single breakout hit (even Naruto's appeal is nowhere near the previous two anime series)) - and so anime music will continue to be a niche market and if most people are introduced to J-Pop through anime music, then it will always remain small and going mainstream is almost unreachable. J-Pop/J-Rock on the whole will mostly have their fandom at anime conventions.
That plus the cultural barrior, which a lot of people mentioned. For example, how "handsome" and "hot" are differently defined in Japan.brown_eyes wrote:In other words they try too hard to be Americanized, which gives us a no win situation. It's almost a paradox.
I think Asians can succeed in the business, but they need to have the whole package; the music, the image, the right American accent, and the confidence to put Asian Cultural Music OUT THERE.
I liked how you guys were talking about Utada Hikaru[/b]'s English album. You guys are completely right. I haven't heard the whole thing, but I have a couple of her songs from that album, and it's completely crap. Like someone said, I'm surprised that they didn't include the SOLE track that is making even a bit popular, "Simple and Clean". It's a song that appealed to me before I got into this whole J-pop business. If she followed a similar song-producing way with her entire English album, it would have been a bigger success.
And groink, you're a pretty big Yuna Ito fan, aren't you? *lol* Yeah, I agree. I'm a huge fan of hers, and I totally believe that she can enter the American market with a good song. Has any of you listened to her "These boots are made for walkin'" song, recently released from her stuck on you single? True, there is still a faint accent, but with practise, I think she can probably get that accent out of the way altogether. Also, I think she's releasing a mostly English album soon? Yeah, I too would like to see her do something Mariah Carey-like, she's got the vocals for sure, and I know that she can go beyond these songs she comes out with.
Anyways, that's my two cents.
err, isn't Yuna Ito's native language supposed to be american? as far as I know she grew up in the US (Hawaii), so ... why does she have an accent? hawaiian accent maybe? oO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuna_Ito
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuna_Ito
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Keep in mind, though, that anime in America is dubbed. You can't dub music. We can't use anime in America as a comparison because it doesn't have the cultural identity issues that live works have.jpoplover08 wrote:But i think it does.What with things like anime becoming more and more popular as well. That will fuel it.
--- groink
Accent??? I don't hear any. I actually know both her and her family for several years. And her English accent sounds very American. Y'all must realize that when you live in ANY geographical area for one year or more, you WILL pick up on the "twang" of that region. Even I have that problem when I visit my grandparents in New Hampshire. What you guys hear as an accent is more likely caused by her pronouncing Japanese phonetics 24/7 the last year or so.minikui wrote:err, isn't Yuna Ito's native language supposed to be american? as far as I know she grew up in the US (Hawaii), so ... why does she have an accent? hawaiian accent maybe? oO
Even more bizzaire, there's a bunch of cows somewhere where they've actually picked up a drawl in their "mooooooo" sound, due to the drawl of the residents in the area. And speech experts have actually verified it.
--- groink
Found the cow article... Yeah yeah this is totally off-topic, but this is the conclusion of that accent issue:
Reuters wrote:LONDON, England (Reuters) -- Cows have regional accents, a group of British farmers claims, and phonetics experts say the idea is not as far-fetched as it sounds.
Lloyd Green, from southwest England, was one of a group of farmers who first noticed the phenomenon.
"I spend a lot of time with my Friesians and they definitely 'moo' with a Somerset drawl," he said, referring to the breed of dairy cow he owns.
"I've spoken to the other farmers in the West Country group and they have noticed a similar development in their own herds.
"I think it works the same as with dogs - the closer a farmer's bond is with his animals, the easier it is for them to pick up his accent."
Dom Lane, spokesman for a group called the West Country Farmhouse Cheesemakers to which Green belongs, said it contacted John Wells, Professor of Phonetics at University College London, who said that a similar phenomenon had been found in birds.
"You find distinct chirping accents in the same species around the country. This could also be true of cows," Wells said on the group's Web site.
According to Lane, accents among cows probably develop in a similar way as among humans, and resulted from spending time with farmers with differing accents.
"Apparently the biggest influence on accents is peer groups -- on children in the playground, for example," he said. "Herds are quite tight-knit communities and don't tend to leave the area."
He added that more scientific research was needed to prove what was just an anecdotal theory at this stage.
I have to agree with both what groink and everyone else has to say about JPOP becoming mainstream in America... I just want to add a few more things.
I feel (as stated by everyone else) that JPOP will not be accepted until there is someone who can sing in PREFECT English. I have Kuraki Mai's CD in which she sang all of her songs of her first album in English. She is probably one the more talented JPOP artists out there (ie she can actually sing well). But you cannot understand what she is saying for most of the album. Of course, if you can't understand what an artist is singling, I doubt people will buy the album. Utada Hikaru probably has the best chances of sucess in the US, but lets face it, her Exodus album was not her best work. If she released a English cover of all her best hit songs, then it might actually do well. I don't think she was trying to adapt that album for the US market... I think she was at a weird place artistically during that time. Her JPOP singles that she released right after that was kinda weird too (IMHO).
I don't think it is realistic to expect that any Japanese language song will ever break into the US Top 40 charts ever again. I have to be honest... I listen to JPOP because I am Japanese, and I understand the language. I don't think I can ever become passionate about any other culture's music, such as KPOP or HKPOP. I don't think it's racism or anything... its just that I don't understand the lyrics. The lyrics convey the soul of the artist, and without understanding the lyrics, it is hard to get into the music. I have an enormous amount of respect for people who listen to music and don't understand the lyrics. To me, I find that the songs just confuse me.
As stated before, I think Crystal Kay could break into the US market... but if she sings in English, how would that make her different from any other R&B artist currently out there? I believe that would be the same for Yuna Ito, melody (why hasn't anyone mentioned her yet?). Their music is pretty much generic POP, and once they start singing in English, that they would lose any JPOP connection. And since they are native English speakers, their sucess would be entirely dependent on some of the other factors mentioned previously, such as marketing, and cultural acceptance.
Speaking of Top 40 in the US... does that even exist anymore? 15 years ago, there tons of Top 40 stations, but currently, where I live, there is no radio station that is "Top 40" (KQMQ is not Top 40...). I read somewhere that as radio stations are bought up by large broadcast companies such as Clear Channel, they are getting rid of the Top 40 format, and focusing more on genre specific stations, such as "Alternative," "Urban/Hip Hop," "Adult Contemporary," and the ever dreaded "Country." Where would JPOP fit into this scheme? Although it seems like most people seemed to classifly Japanese music as a broad JPOP/JROCK distinction, most JPOP music can be divided into different genre. For example, MAX would be more EuroBeat, Anglea Aki, Yui, Rie Fu, can be considered the singer/songwriter genre, etc etc. The JPOP as a genre is probably what can be described as idol pop, and comes from groups that came out of Johnny's or Hello Project. This is what most people outside of Japan would typically identify as JPOP, which is unfortunate.
I gotta say that for Japanese music to catch on in the US, they will have to improve the quality of music. Every once in a while, you see Western groups perform on programs such as Music Station, and you see the difference in quality between the Japanese performers and their Western counterparts. Recent guest such as Red Hot Chilli Peppers, and James Blunt show the quality of top Western performers, while showing how rough and undeveloped JPOP singers are.
Hows this for a crazy idea? Have some Japanese producers produce Western artists... I am thinking that Komuro Tetsuya or maybe who ever produces the Giza artists (Aiuchi Rina, Garnet Crow, Kuraki Mai) had a chance to produce a Western artist, and see how sucessful they are. That might be the closest thing to having JPOP being sucessful in the US.
BTW: This may have been beaten to death, but Yuna Ito's native language is English. Any accents that you are hearing is an "Local' Hawaiian accent, maybe a little bit of "pidgen" thrown in? As mentioned before, speaking Japanese probably hasn't helped either. It happens to me too... I know it takes a day or two for me to switch over to my Japanese mode when I land in Tokyo for a vacation, and it takes me a day or two to switch back into my English mode when I return to Honolulu.
I feel (as stated by everyone else) that JPOP will not be accepted until there is someone who can sing in PREFECT English. I have Kuraki Mai's CD in which she sang all of her songs of her first album in English. She is probably one the more talented JPOP artists out there (ie she can actually sing well). But you cannot understand what she is saying for most of the album. Of course, if you can't understand what an artist is singling, I doubt people will buy the album. Utada Hikaru probably has the best chances of sucess in the US, but lets face it, her Exodus album was not her best work. If she released a English cover of all her best hit songs, then it might actually do well. I don't think she was trying to adapt that album for the US market... I think she was at a weird place artistically during that time. Her JPOP singles that she released right after that was kinda weird too (IMHO).
I don't think it is realistic to expect that any Japanese language song will ever break into the US Top 40 charts ever again. I have to be honest... I listen to JPOP because I am Japanese, and I understand the language. I don't think I can ever become passionate about any other culture's music, such as KPOP or HKPOP. I don't think it's racism or anything... its just that I don't understand the lyrics. The lyrics convey the soul of the artist, and without understanding the lyrics, it is hard to get into the music. I have an enormous amount of respect for people who listen to music and don't understand the lyrics. To me, I find that the songs just confuse me.
As stated before, I think Crystal Kay could break into the US market... but if she sings in English, how would that make her different from any other R&B artist currently out there? I believe that would be the same for Yuna Ito, melody (why hasn't anyone mentioned her yet?). Their music is pretty much generic POP, and once they start singing in English, that they would lose any JPOP connection. And since they are native English speakers, their sucess would be entirely dependent on some of the other factors mentioned previously, such as marketing, and cultural acceptance.
Speaking of Top 40 in the US... does that even exist anymore? 15 years ago, there tons of Top 40 stations, but currently, where I live, there is no radio station that is "Top 40" (KQMQ is not Top 40...). I read somewhere that as radio stations are bought up by large broadcast companies such as Clear Channel, they are getting rid of the Top 40 format, and focusing more on genre specific stations, such as "Alternative," "Urban/Hip Hop," "Adult Contemporary," and the ever dreaded "Country." Where would JPOP fit into this scheme? Although it seems like most people seemed to classifly Japanese music as a broad JPOP/JROCK distinction, most JPOP music can be divided into different genre. For example, MAX would be more EuroBeat, Anglea Aki, Yui, Rie Fu, can be considered the singer/songwriter genre, etc etc. The JPOP as a genre is probably what can be described as idol pop, and comes from groups that came out of Johnny's or Hello Project. This is what most people outside of Japan would typically identify as JPOP, which is unfortunate.
I gotta say that for Japanese music to catch on in the US, they will have to improve the quality of music. Every once in a while, you see Western groups perform on programs such as Music Station, and you see the difference in quality between the Japanese performers and their Western counterparts. Recent guest such as Red Hot Chilli Peppers, and James Blunt show the quality of top Western performers, while showing how rough and undeveloped JPOP singers are.
Hows this for a crazy idea? Have some Japanese producers produce Western artists... I am thinking that Komuro Tetsuya or maybe who ever produces the Giza artists (Aiuchi Rina, Garnet Crow, Kuraki Mai) had a chance to produce a Western artist, and see how sucessful they are. That might be the closest thing to having JPOP being sucessful in the US.
BTW: This may have been beaten to death, but Yuna Ito's native language is English. Any accents that you are hearing is an "Local' Hawaiian accent, maybe a little bit of "pidgen" thrown in? As mentioned before, speaking Japanese probably hasn't helped either. It happens to me too... I know it takes a day or two for me to switch over to my Japanese mode when I land in Tokyo for a vacation, and it takes me a day or two to switch back into my English mode when I return to Honolulu.
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