Japan's missed opportunity The spread of Kdrama to the west

[wewa]

I read this article, and I fantasize, that J is substituted for K...
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/feat ... ramas.html

I am both happy and sad at the same time.
Being in Hawaii, I am glad that we have opportunities such as having great resources such as J and K video shops, and tv networks available to us.
I am also glad for all those that love K entertainment.

But I am sad, because 8 years ago, when I first discovered J-Drama, and then the resulting J-pop, I was excited. It was clean, fun, wholesome, and i could totally relate to my JA heritage. I believed that, like Karaoke and Power Rangers and Anime, Jpop and Jdrama could make a decent showing in the USA.

As I watched, and waited for the winds of change, I saw the reverse effect.
I saw how K grew in popularity.
I saw how FujiTV decided to stop E subs. WTF?
J DVDs are overpriced and Region restricted. Not to mention non-existent distribution.
They go backwards in globalizing their creative content. Sad.

Even when I go to L.A. or S.F. I find that there are 6 K radio stations available, and only 1 or 2 J radio. They may be doing better with TV options, compared to us in Hawaii, from what I've seen.

Samsung is eclipsing Sony.

I think the Japanese have adopted too much of America, and are now Pu-Pu-Pu.
(I was initiated to J via Pu-Pu-Pu and Akimahende. I know. Don't laugh.)

I hope they can see the light, but it may be insignificant at this stage.

[groink]

I keep pushing this fact again and again.

1. Japanese-oriented entertainment is still number-one in Japan. Seriously - this is all that matters.

2. Korean entertainment is beating out Japanese entertainment outside of Japan. Does the Japanese geinoukai care? No!

3. Can you do something about it? NO! Because the Japanese is not interested in making money in markets outside of their primary area, which is Japan. They have a right to this philosophy. And, they are not wrong.

Copy/paste from my blog:

Let's compare TV to computers. Microsoft Windows right now owns a 93-percent share of the operating system market. And just about all computers run Microsoft Windows. Apple Computer's Mac OS X owns about five-percent of the OS market. Many pro-Microsoft folks keep telling me (I'm an Apple Computer shareholder) that Apple will go out of business because of low market share numbers. This pre-school level business analysis of theirs is not only wrong, but it's also the wrong approach to the situation altogether. Let's look at a couple of things... First, Apple is second only to Dell Computers in total computer sales (2005). Which means Apple sells more computers than IBM, Hewlett-Packard and everyone else. And remember that Apple's computers are quite expensive, so don't start telling me Intel PCs sell because they're cheap. Second, although Mac OS X represents only five-percent of the OS market, 100-percent of computers running Mac OS X are Apple Macintosh computers. Therefore, Apple Computer as a company is sitting pretty and making a shitload of money for their stockholders. And that's because Apple caters to only one group of people - Mac OS X people who want to run it on Macintosh computers.

My point in that paragraph is this: You cannot measure a market by just popularity alone. You must also consider the fact that in your PRIMARY market, your product is number-one. Considering the FACT that South Korea is trying to spread their "Korean pride" does not mean all other Eastern Asian cultures have to follow suit. Matter of fact, nothing in Japan has changed... Even back in the day when Sakamoto Ryoma tried get Japan involved with the west, most of Japan were not interested in anything outside of their homeland. This method of thinking among the geinoukai still exists.

The Korean wave, and the geinoukai have absolutely no affect on me whatsoever:

1. I don't relate to Korean culture at all, despite living in Hawaii and having the OL's talking about K-dramas all the time.

2. Despite the points wewa made about Fuji TV, the cost of DVDs, how bad KIKU-TV is doing (well, wewa didn't mention KIKU-TV, but they DO SUCK), my taste for Japanese entertainment over other Eastern Asian markets not only have changed - it has INCREASED.

--- groink

[Tenguman]

I don't know if I completely agree with that. I'm also a JA living in Hawai'i. Like you, I'm very happy that we have the terrific resources like the J video shops, KIKUTV and NGN. I also like Jpop, Jdrama, J variety shows, and anime.

While I absolutely enjoy these shows myself, I also don't feel that the majority of America could get "into" them as I have. There are too many subtleties in Jdrama to really appeal to the American public. The careful sense of balance and use of archetypal stories is too frequently viewed as being bland and repetitive by many people.

As far as J DVDs being overpriced, I can sympathize with your frustration. They are expensive in comparison to American dvds but what their society gains in return is immeasurable. They have society built strongly on Confucian values which has many benefits; these benefits are paid for by expensive dvds and cds. When I buy something in Japan and there's a problem, I know that I can take it back to the store and get it replaced easily and with no argument. The streets and public facilities are kept much cleaner than here in America and I know that the money I spend trickles down to that as well.

Many of my family members also complain about FujiTVs decision to stop subtitling. I can only say that those TV broadcasts are really made for people who can speak and read Japanese. If every fan of Japanese dramas and music would spend a little more effort in learning the language that produces such wonderful works then there would be no complaints about this at all. It really just takes a certain amount of effort. If they really love Japanese culture than the ideas of "gaman" and "gambaru" should be easily understood.

Besides Japanese creative content is already being globalized. The Ring, The Grudge, and Dark Water are clear examples of that. The throngs of fans that mobbed KATTUN when they came to the US show this as well. While it's true Japan has become Americanized, America has not escaped Japan's influence either. Our tastes in food, literature and art have all been profoundly affected by Japan. We just don't realize it because like much in Japanese culture, the effect is subtle. Besides if you go to McDonald's in Japan and you really pay attention you'll see much that is Japanese. The sinks along the line to wash your hands, the way they can just put the drinks into paper bags and not have them spill or make a mess, the way the patty on my Fillet o fish is put in the center of the bun rather than spilling off the side as is frequently the case here. These things are also Japanese, perhaps more so than kimono or samurai swords because they are in every level of their culture and society.

Like I said, I can really sympathize with your feelings. I used to feel that way myself. Still I think Japan will continue to be more of an inspiring force rather than a marketable one.

[Gir]

Besides if you go to McDonald's in Japan and you really pay attention you'll see much that is Japanese. The sinks along the line to wash your hands, the way they can just put the drinks into paper bags and not have them spill or make a mess, the way the patty on my Fillet o fish is put in the center of the bun rather than spilling off the side as is frequently the case here.

I was on a tour in Osaka, while the others in the tour went into a McDonald's for lunch, I stayed outside and ate at a takoyaki stand. I then went into the McDonald's and was standing next to thier table talking, when a girl came from behind the counter and brought me over a chair, that would never happen in one here.

[Schala]

the way they can just put the drinks into paper bags and not have them spill or make a mess,

Yes, how do they do that?!

I went to a Japanese take out place, and I got two small drinks, but I didn't have enough hands to carry the drinks and the food, so I asked the lady if she had anything to put the drinks in. She put them in a small paper bag, and then put that bag into a plastic bag. Now, I was being very careful, and the cups did have lids, but I managed to carry it out the of the take out place, and drive for like 20 minutes without the cups spilling a single drop! I was thinking, man either I was really lucky, or she has quite some skill! @_@

[martina_SMO]

I was wondering if this...

http://www.business-i.jp/news/sou-page/ ... 40028a.nwc

[English summary: Ministry of Foreign Affairs to Start New Program: Japan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs will be founding the "Kaigai Kouryuu Shingi-kai" (Foreign Exchange Deliberative Council) in an effort to deepen foreigner's understading of Japan through its anime, music, etc.]

...could have been inspired by the Korean wave?

I certainly wish Japan did more to promote its entertainment ^_^

[BusonIssa]

Because the Japanese is not interested in making money in markets outside of their primary area, which is Japan. They have a right to this philosophy. And, they are not wrong.

Oh yes they are! These programs are made by publicly traded companies which are obligated by law to maximize profits for their shareholders, many of whom are not even Japanese. Leaving money on the table when they don't have to is just plain irresponsible.

[anbuSubgeta]

Yea, i know K-Drama's are a hot topic these days etc. that's because they are good in that aspect. To me Japanese stuff etc etc. will always rock over any K-crap.

Remember back in the day when Anime(a.k.a. Japanimation) was really hard to get and people would trade VHS tapes. ah good times!!!

Japan has a vast majority in other things rather then drama, In my books they started this trend, first to have a small taste of what they offer. In my books they have N#1 for Video Games, Anime,Jpop,Jrock,Gundam,Tuner cars (Skyline,RX-7,WRX-Spec C,Silvia's), Fashion, i can go on and on. As far as Cell phone's topics go, Korea might beat them just by a hair,but Foma phones and DoCoMo OwNz, as far as Samsung shadowing Sony, Never (Sony's PS3 coming out will prove a point).

Back in they day most people here would have no idea of what K-Drama's were. It was all about Japanese Anime,Movies,Robots,Music.

if Fuji-TV stopped official Subbing for their shows well that motivates me enough to still keep learning Nihongo, jah ne bakaroooh!

[6502inside]

publicly traded companies which are obligated by law to maximize profits for their shareholders

Yes, a strange but a true fact. IMHO it is also disgusting in ethical terms, and is the reason that I will never invest a cent in stocks nor feel sorry for folks who lose theirs.

Japanese stuff etc etc. will always rock over any K-crap.

I prefer Japanese also but I think a term like K-crap is the sort of thing that will spark a flamewar...

[groink]

Oh yes they are! These programs are made by publicly traded companies which are obligated by law to maximize profits for their shareholders, many of whom are not even Japanese. Leaving money on the table when they don't have to is just plain irresponsible.

I for one do not believe that it is a FACT that investing in foreign markets is a proven method of maximizing profits. Thousands of American, traded companies do not invest outside of the US. Are you going to rattle their chain about it, too? I don't see AT&T taking over phone lines in Asia, or Texaco trying to sell gasoline in Europe. The statement "maximizing profits" is purely objective, where one economist can prove that the Japanese must invest outside of Japan, while another economist can prove that investing outside of Japan is a poor move.

I'd like to see proof of the following:

1. Any court case won by the shareholders where it was proven that the company's profits were not maximized because they did not invest outside of their home country.

2. Any academic document stating that it is impossible for you to maximize profits just focusing on your home country.

And BTW, not all Japanese television companies are publicly traded in Japan. NHK is one of them (they get their funding from Japan's broadcasting act.)

--- groink

[anbuSubgeta]

I think i found out why, take a look at the more realistic situation. I noticed alot of Kdramas shows always mention that their economy is low all the time. Then I was also watching the K news and even mention alot of company's stocks keep falling, as well as the dollar value, samsung took a 1.3% drop on their stock. Even more with that research stem cell scandal that happened a few months ago, where they lied about an experiment of some sort, i forgot. But anyway this relates to why Kdramas not only that but other shows, they want to make a market out side Korea. I also seen a Japanese TV News show where they talked about 2 KBS world channels that would show and tell about the Korean culture in Japan. WOW! I know other people might know about this, just thought you might want to know.

The reason I mentioned K-crap, is I get confused with people on here that dissed Jdramas like no tomorrow, knowing that probably they started with a J. Dont take it as an insult )this goes to everyone) just remember J-culture was introduce and exposed way before K was.

I think J-Entertainment is fine the way it is now, it doesnt need to proof that its Cool when its been that way since the loooooooongest!!!

Jah ne!

[kanmurikurisumasu]

I think the reason they don't succeed is the format of their dramas. Most dramas are set up on the same canvas. Episode one, you get to know everyone, following episodes, the main character will solve the problems, or at least get involved with, of the other characters. Then around episode 8 a new character appears and either helps the main character or make his life hell.

Korean dramas are longer thus characters can be developped in dept. They also, lately, have original storylines, like what happpened in Bali, or I'm sorry I love you. But I must say they also have a canvas for their love stories ( just take Stairway to Heaven, Spring scent, Winter sonata, and so on). Also Korean happen to be more expressive where as Japanese are more reserved. Yes, you may see a guy cry in a Japanese drama, but it occurs a whole lot more often in Korean dramas. If you watch Japanese and Korean variety shows you'll notice that the Korean artist touch each other a whole lot more than Japanese people (although the new generation of Japanese artist is changing this) Maybe this expressive side helps reaching out to other regions.

As for me I like both Korean and Japanese dramas, because there are good dramas in both countries. I also think that Japan does feel the pressure and is giving its dramas more attention. I think of Rondo for example which special effects are nice and storyline interesting. Anyway, I enjoy dramas regardless and I am happy we can get them from the Internet because we can watch them at our own pace.

[intercar]

if indeed as groink points out the jdrama can be satisfied with just the domestic market then it's understandable that kdramas are trying so hard to expand their market overseas since the korean domestic market is so much smaller. the thing is these cultural products have mutiplier effects to other products like cars, cosmetics, fashion,etc. I think the japanese are being either short sighted or cultural isolationists.

[Prince of Moles]

Well it would be nice if Japanese dramas were popular in the US, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.

First of all you have the problem with the format. Most Japanese shows end after 1 season (9-12 eps). So that goes directly against the US format of having 22-26 eps per season, with multiple seasons.

Many Japanese shows that do have multiple seasons, best examples are probably Wataru seken wa onibakari and Abarenbo shogun, don't translate well. Trick and some of the cop shows, like Aibo, might be viable candidates but they have problems of their own.

Then there is the problem with the themes. A lot of Japanese dramas have moved away from love as the main theme and that limits their value when trying to sell to an international audience. (Romantic comedies and love stories are still made, but there are simply fewer of them. Out of the 14 shows in this winter season there is only 1 show! that focuses squarely on love, Kobayakawa Nobuki no koi.) If you want to sell something to an international audience, you better have a universal theme: typically love, sex, or violence. Comedy does not translate well, Seinfeld flopped in many countries, and most dramas have given up on sex and violence (with a few exceptions like Byakuyako), so that really leaves love as the only universal theme that can be assured of selling.

When you put all these factors togeher, it makes perfect sense why the Korean dramas (much longer than Japanese dramas) focusing on love are selling in the US. You don't hear about Americans watching Korean historical dramas or Korean school dramas or Korean comedy.

[expo1970]

there's a huge difference in mentality between the koreans and japanese as groink has eloquently pointed out. Japanese people are not marketing japanese entertainment for foreign viewership. Foreign countries come excavating into Japan looking for stuff and then ask the Japanese if they are willing to share. There are many directors who were shocked at the fact that foreigners were actually watching Japanese dorama. Saiyuki popularity across Asia, into Britain, Australia and even the USA shocked everyone in the entertainment industry. What's even more interesting is that the Japanese people are unaware about the popularity of their pop culture in Asia and partially in the western world. Japanese people are unaware that they are setting the fashion trends, music trends, television dorama trends in Asia. Just another example of Japanese ignorance of the world outside their isolated utopia.

Compare to Korea. Korea is now trying full force to improve its national appearance throughout the world. The government is pouring so much resources into Olympics athletes, scientists close to getting Nobel prizes, enforcing laws agaisnt anti-Koreanness, etc. This Korean wave/boom is exactly it's name. Just a boom. While the Koreans are out trying to blow people away with their tremendous efforts to become popular (like the unpopular kid in the playground), Japanese popularity in Asia is standing unwavering. Which is ironic because the Japanese are doing nothing and quite frankly don't care about their image overseas.

That's why I don't lament the situation. Americans are getting the little bits of Japanese culture that they're interested in and that satisfies them so all's good. Let them make their Hollywood remakes, watch decade old anime, eat sushi thinking that's our entire diet. We don't care.

[Ssang]

^ Speaking of anime, most of it seems to be catering to a Western audience. Hell, even the characters are racially Western. That said, I'm not quite interested in making an elaborate point here since this topic is of little interest to me vis what J drama fans think. But I'm sure there are relevant considerations and parrallels in anime that would be worth noting at length considering some of the posts.

You don't hear about Americans watching Korean historical dramas or Korean school dramas or Korean comedy.

Not true. Dae Jang Geum is one example. The romance is incidental in the show. And it's an historical drama. It was remarkably popular in Chicago when it was aired there with english subtitles a couple of years ago.

[oasis]

I think that the most popular anime exports tend to get so much localization that they lose their japanese-ness. I also think the most popular (by that i mean mainstream, not popular within our particular niche interest group) anime exports are specifically targeted at export - that is, the gundams and pokemons and sailormoons that make their way to cartoon network etc - and are thus not truly representative of the great pantheon of anime, let alone japanese culture. And I have no respect for these either.

What I would like to see is a healthy international outlook that fosters competition and improvement.

[groink]

I think that the most popular anime exports tend to get so much localization that they lose their japanese-ness.

By damn you've NAILED IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD! Yes, the anime you see imported into the U.S. is really not Japanese-ese (made that word up just now.) That is why Americans can cope with anime, as was mentioned earlier... So you can't compare Japanese anime to Japanese live TV shows. When you watch a Japanese drama, you can't help but see slant-eyed people with totally different lifestyles, beliefs and cultures from what Americans are used to. Why do people bow down to their food before eating it? Why do people have trouble saying "I love you" to someone they in fact love? Why is that man adopted by his wife's family? Why does that woman have to marry that man just because her parents told her to do so? She shoudl tell her parents that she's her own woman, and she can marry anyone she wants!!!! Why can't that salaryman tell his boss, "You know what? I just don't want to work 16 hours a day!!!!" Where are all the labor unions???? Why do a lot of the people there worship Buddah instead of Jesus Christ?

Believe me... Americans are really self-centered when it comes to opening their minds in order to grasp other cultures. They even have a hard time watching subtitles!!!! So why do you people expect them to open themselves up to a Japanese drama? THIS is what the Japanese executives think of the Americans. So once again, why should the Japanese bother exporting their live dramas to a market where only 0.0000002378-percent of the population will appreciate it?

That's why in my earlier post that increasing profits for their shareholders may actually be a BAD MOVE if they were to produce thousands of region-1 DVDs. And I'm speaking from first-hand experience in the DVD manufacturing business. When JN Productions (based in Hawaii) produced the Jinzo Ningen Kikaida DVDs (tokusatsu), they had a HELL of a time selling them. They've only recently started seeing black numbers - and that's after about three years selling these sets. So when it came time for them to release the Kamen Rider V3 DVDs, they decided to order the bare minimum of DVDs, which I believe were 500 box sets. And right now they have dozens of these box sets still sitting in storage. In all, DVDs for them is just a very bad investment. Sure it gets the word out, but remember this is a business - and not some evangelical group trying to push entertainment from a culture that's from half-way around the world.

I guarantee you that there are more people in America eating raw fish than those who will actually adopt Japanese dramas.

--- groink

[groink]

BTW, if any of you want to understand what the Americans think of the Japanese, you must read the book Dave Berry Does Japan, by Dave Berry. Dave is a very famous comedic writer, with his columns circulating in thousands of newspapers all over the US. They even created a TV sitcom based on his life, starring Harry Anderson.

The book is filled with many comments, based on his two-week trip to Japan about 10 years or so ago. I can't remember everything he said, but most of them were very typical of what you'd hear from any American experiencing Japanese culture.

--- groink

[expo1970]

i love when dave barry makes fun of japanese business interactions. don't have teh book in front of me but it went something like:

a japanese business interaction:
t: hello suzuki san.
s: hello tanaka san.
t: i'm sorry.
s: no, no, i am sorrier.
t: i'm sorry that you're sorry.
s: i'm terribly sorry for making you feel sorry.

an american business interaction:
b: hey jack
j: hey bob
b: how they hanging jack?
j: one lower than the other, haha
they slap each other on the back.

dave barry makes fun of japan at the same time as he makes fun of his own ignorance of japan. i think he enjoys himself well in Japan even though he may never completely understand japan. which is a lot better than hating japan because one can't understand it. i think dave barry has a good mentality.

[boji]

im a big fan of kdramas but yeah this whole discussion is making me want to try a jdorama so i can support both yeah know

[pokute]

While the Koreans are out trying to blow people away with their tremendous efforts to become popular (like the unpopular kid in the playground), Japanese popularity in Asia is standing unwavering. Which is ironic because the Japanese are doing nothing and quite frankly don't care about their image overseas.

Um, just would like to point out that this is only because Japan had a 100 year head-start. During the Meiji era, Japan was not only engaged in imperial expansion, but in marketing Japanese goods and culture to the European and American markets. At international exhibitions all over the world, the displays of Japanese commercial goods were very popular, and the Japanese were quick to modify the materials and designs of decorative goods to suit the international market.

[expo1970]

I don't know what you're speaking of. Japanese were "marketing Japanese goods and culture to the Europeans and Americans"? What time period is this? This is clearly not Meiji era. Japanese businesses started tayloring to global interests only in recent years with Sony and their walkmans, Toyota and Honda with their cars, etc.

100 year head-start? Head-start on what? International trade? Television dramas? Those can't be. Bottom line, never has Japan tried hard to market their television shows overseas but very furiously is Korea trying to sell their country's image abroad. What's ironic is that the in spite of Korean's best efforts, turns out people in Asia still prefer Japanese shows over Korean.

[pokute]

Wow, self-righteous flaunting of historical ignorance! Great rhetorical technique!

[groink]

Like someone said earlier, the Korean wave is dying down. In Hawaii, the media is already losing interest. Until just a few months ago, every frigging Hawaii-based Japanese-oriented magazine was covering K-stuff. I wrote to several of these magazines and complained about it... If I want to read about the Koreans, I'll go out and buy one of their magazines. I don't want to sit at home, open my Eye-Ai or Kokiku magazine only to find that scarf-wearing dude all over it. I still see Lord Jeff Chung pushing his "Korean soap opera" stuff in the local paper, but he's only doing that to bring in viewers to his television station. So I don't consider his stuff as true media coverage.

Really, K-dramas is no longer a huge spectacle like it was earlier. Now, they're just another genre of Asian entertainment. Remember, there was a Japanese wave of its own back in the late 1980's and most of the 1990's. That's when NGN was born, and KIKU-TV started carrying J-dramas. But unlike the South Korean government who's encouraging this pride movement, it just simply "happened" without the Japanese companies making an even tiny effort. Remember boys & girls, there will be another wave coming out of Asia... And the K-stuff will be sit back along with the J-stuff while the next Asian culture grabs the spotlight.

--- groink

[Ssang]

I think that the most popular anime exports tend to get so much localization that they lose their japanese-ness.

How many people do you know who are into J drama, pop, or J (glam) rock because they thought Pokemon was the coolest **** in existence? I know of none but I know plenty who got into Jpop culture in general from watching other animes, most of which are hardly traditional Japanese in content, though they may not be as culturally vacuous as a show like Pokemon may be. And, yes, those anime do seem to get a lot of international investment. I might be wrong about this but it seems like a lot of anime these days get made with an eye to its foreign markets, not even considering the way these animes are being systematically licenced for distribution.

Anyway, I have a small grievance. I think a few of you need to stop theorizing about "the Koreans" and our "pride movement". Being obsessed with anything that you don't like can't be good for the health. Also, giving it the negative spin to that, as some of you do is offensive to me. Why be so cynical.? It's actually quite natural for a country to invest and take note of its emerging overseas sucess stories, especially a country that is coming out of 1) colonization, 2) war, and 3) division (which it's still in the midst of). Korea is a small nation and has had stable government for less than 3 decades only. How else is its people supposed to respond when a variety of their shows gets the attention that it does? With passive indifference? I don't agree that doing so would be good. Not doing so wouldn't be a bad thing either!

I do agree with the assertion that popularity for K dramas is dying. A fad by its nature isn't permanent. It reaches its highpoint and then settles in toward a new equilibirum. That's how culture rolls. Scarf dude's popularity won't last forever, but frankly most Koreans aren't fans of his anyway. Kind of reminds me of me and the way that I used to watch those harem anime. I haven't seen a series in ages!

[Prince of Moles]

I wouldn't say that Japan had a 100 year head start, but yeah as soon as trade with the US, the UK, Russia, France, Germany opened up in 1859 Japanese merchants did aggressively market their goods overseas.

The key difference between now and back then is that back then Japanese merchants were selling low cost items or raw materials. The largest Japanese export up until 1941 was Raw Silk (60-70% in value of total exports, not weight obviously since silk is light), and over 70% of that Raw Silk went to the US. So before WW2 roughly half of all Japanese exports were Raw Silk going to the US. Other key exports were Green Tea, going to the US again where people drank it with honey, and Cotton Cloth which went to Asia, mainly China. Japan was not selling much of their culture or their high quality goods. They tried, but aside from a handful of people who were interested, those didn't generate much money.


I'll confess that I'm ignorant of what the Koreans were doing in the nineteenth century, but certainly from 1910 to 1945 they really didn't have much of a chance to export things as Koreans since they were part of the Japanese empire, and then from 1950-53 they had to fight a nasty civil war.

Personally I give credit to the Korean government and Korean business in selling their goods overseas.

[expo1970]

Exactly as Prince of Moles stated: the Japanese were selling silk and other raw materials. This is nothing about "catering" to foreign markets. It's not like Japanese were making a silk that is "Japanese" in cultural nature. Anything really "Japanese" in intellectual thought, creativity, and ingenuity was mostly spread to global attention during the late 70s early 80s with Japanese electronics, ie cars, video games, walkmans, etc (which are even arguable as to whether only the Japanese could have made these products the way they were made).

The primary difference between Korea and Japan is that the government of Japan makes no effort to promote its country overseas whatsoever, while the Korean government furiously cares about its face in the global community. The Japanese government has to worry more about satisfying their own people rather than care about what other Asians think of them. That's why the Japanese govenrment is always apologizing to the Chinese and Koreans without even doing any research about what it is they're apologizing about. The Korean government is doing everything from sending its celebrities oveseas to meet with foreign ministers, fund scientists so they can win their first Nobel prize, fund athletes to win in Olympics and other worldwide games, etc.

There's something that makes Japan inherently popular in Asia without the Japanese trying, compared to Korean entertainment which still feels like it needs a couple more years of maturing. If you look at Korean dramas, they feel like old Japanese dramas from the 70s or 80s. Koreans are swiftly catching up to Japan though and perhaps there will be a day when Korean entertainment is as popular as Japanese entertainment. Or perhaps Koreans don't need to "catch up" to become as popular as Japan. Perhaps their exaggerated acting, perdictable storylines, and girly men will win over and appeal to the Asian market, mayble even the global market. But when that day comes, no Japanese person will be lamenting. Japanese people quite frankly don't care. Japanese people are happy in their own isolated utopia.

[daalig]

Perhaps their exaggerated acting, perdictable storylines, and girly men will win over and appeal to the Asian market.

That sounds like J-Drama...and Taiwanese Drama...oh and K-Drama.

It seems those elements have already won. Though, there's always a few dramas from each country that go against the norm, and it's no different with K-Drama.

[Prince of Moles]

Wait a sec, just because Japan was selling Raw Silk doesn't mean that there was no "catering." They did "cater," or in a more neutral way of putting it, the Japanese conducted market research on what type of Silk the Americans wanted. In fact in the very early years, there was active Japanese government participation in trying to sell Japanese Silk in the US. So it was a more or less national venture.

Also Japanese attempts to sell Cotton Cloth in Asia can only be understood within the context of empire building and aggressive Japanese government intervention in the markets. So that's "catering" in a different way...

This is not to say that the Japanese and Korean governments are supernationalist wackos. All governments intervene to help out their merchants and products. The most notorious case is the Opium War in which the British launched a war of aggression so that they can sell their opium.

I am just saying that Japan was not selling "culture" as we understand it (eg Ukiyoe). But even when they were selling Raw Silk, the merchants catered to the American taste in the type of Silk they wanted and did everything they could to satisfy their demand.

And this applies to the 70s and 80s. Japanese cars and electronics sold tremendously only after there was intense effort by the government and companies to spread the word out about Japanese products and to adapt to the local scene. After all Japanese cars sold in the US have the driver's wheel on the left hand side (not the right like in Japan).


The only reason why the Japanese government doesn't intervene as much as they used to in 2006 is because they found out (through the hard way) that government intervention is more likely to fail than succeed.

[oasis]

are the costs of producing and distributing content for an english-language audience really so onerous? it seems like business processes over the internet could radically reduce these costs.

[Romance]

my friend said today "america doesnt deserve good things such as korean dramas or japanese ;)"

[WroW]

my friend said today "america doesnt deserve good things such as korean dramas or japanese ;)"

Yes they dont

[deathstar550]

On the spread of culture --
I personally don't really care if J-dramas become "big" in America. I'll always watch what I like -- it's not as if other people's tastes and prejudices dictate what I do and can't do. So I don't really care either way about the "spread of culture" -- either it spreads or it doesn't, and either way is fine by me.
What I DON'T want is the spread of J-drama (or lack thereof) to change the way in which J-dramas are currently being made. I like it for what it is.

On access to J-dramas --
I'm sad to hear that the television networks are choosing to limit J-dramas in the US, but it doesn't really affect me in any much way. I get most of my dramas from the internet anyway (as do many of my fellow drama fans). If I need anything obscure, I can just ask relatives overseas to buy it for me, or I can just import it like everyone else.



Slightly off-topic, but one thing has been bothering me as I was reading this thread, so I'm going to make a small request (not directed at anyone in particular, so please don't take offense) --

I'd appreciate it if people would not make negative generalizations about certain racial groups -- just because I have some political beef with some nationality doesn't mean that I have to take it out on everyone that was born into that racial category. And in making racial generalizations, I don't exactly speak for my entire race either (no one in human history has ever been qualified to "speak for their entire race"). So please, no stereotyping -- it's incredibly rude and disrespectul, and it in no way contributes to the thread. Thanks.

[Winchet]

or Texaco trying to sell gasoline in Europe.

errr, actually they did, at least in Germany back in the 80s. I think they sold the gas stations to Esso (Exxon). But Texaco is still activ here in selling oil and other lubricants.
Edit: Texaco Germany was sold to DEA and they were later sold to Shell.

Just my 2 eurocent

[nikochanr3]

Besides occasional showing of shows on asian channels in specific markets, where exactly has either k-drama or j-drama spread? the only drama i see slated now for a commercial (non import) release is Sekai no Chusshin de, and with the comic not doing so well i'm not even sure that's happening.

[SHD]

Besides occasional showing of shows on asian channels in specific markets, where exactly has either k-drama or j-drama spread?

courtesy of koreanwiz:
http://www.koreanwiz.org/special-stations.html

it's North America-centric but I think if you combine it with the YesAsia breakoff YA Ent. box set releases of nearly every Kdrama (with eng. subs), KBS America spread through cable and satellite, Korean films at international festival, crossover marketing in/with Japan, is it Taiwan or China? that's trying to institute quotas on foreign entertainment (spec. kdramas)--I'd say there's enough of a buzz to make the initial poster of this thread feel "the spread of kdrama"

wonder if the original poster is still following this thread.

[Twilight Ronin]

I do agree with Groink.

Japanese TV entertainment is primarily made for Japanese viewers, after all, it's shown on Japanese TV. That's where the TV stations in Japan make the money, that's how it is (and consider some 120 million inhabitants, that's a nice market already).

If it would be shown on US or any other western TV, it would have to be either a) dubbed (which is a PITA, I DON'T want to hear Shibasaki Kou's voice being dubbed in Orange Days) or subbed (how many people really want to read subtitles?).

I mean, it's the same with German TV series. They are made for German audiences, no German TV station gives a crap whether people in Sweden like it or not. Sure, you can watch the stuff in Sweden if you have a satelite receiver and manage to find, let's say RTL or Pro 7, but do those stations care about those viewers? No. Simply, because they're unimportant and not the target group.

[Ssang]

Some of you are blowing things out of proportion, and doing a lot of postulating without facts.

Korean dramas are made primarily for the Korean audience too. The dramas that get an international buzz and the air of "Hanryu" (Korean wave), are the shows that star actors like Bae Yong Jun.

Spring Waltz is currently airing right now and it's been sold to various countries. It's labeled as a "Hanryu" product if only because it's the last installment of the "Season dramas" which were pivotal in gaining the overseas attention that Kdrama has. But how many dramas are aired every year? You think a show like "Goodbye Solo" has any of this hanryu nonsense in mind? It doesn't. Indeed, it's interesting how the Hanryu shows and movies usually flop in Korea. Spring Waltz is struggling to stay in top 20 ratings. It's doing that bad. The film April Snow did great in Japan but it too flopped in Korea. Yet Korea produces a lot of dramas and movies every year - the vast majority of which are not so-called hanryu exports.

[groink]

Korean dramas are made primarily for the Korean audience too.

I totally agree.

That said, I disagree with an earlier post made by someone else when they said that Korean entertainment is a "pull" market rather than "push" market. It may be a pull market NOW, but when this whole Korean wave started, it was 100-percent a push. Almost everything in marketing started with a push. Otherwise, how are you going to even know about the product in the first place? People in Seattle don't just wake up one morning and think to themselves, "Hey! I want to watch a Korean drama!"

It's like illegal drugs (sorry for the comparision)... You have a drug dealer pushing the stuff on people with the "Try this stuff!" attitude. And sell the stuff CHEAP! Most people will not like what it does to them, while some others like the feeling. So the "addicts" will start begging for more. That's when the market turns into a pull market. And in many instances, the price goes up once the demand increases. The only difference with Korean dramas is that the price of everything (DVD box sets, cable subscriptions to KBS America, etc.) is kept low for the consumer.

are the costs of producing and distributing content for an english-language audience really so onerous? it seems like business processes over the internet could radically reduce these costs.

When you manufacture DVDs, you must place an order in minimum but large quantities so that you can keep the manufacturing costs low. It is a lot cheaper to produce 10,000 box sets in one shot than to produce 1,000 box sets at ten different times. As for the Internet model, you're going to have to go into more detail describing exactly what you mean by using the Internet to reduce cost (example: streaming vs physical media?)

--- groink

[Ssang]

It may be a pull market NOW, but when this whole Korean wave started, it was 100-percent a push. Almost everything in marketing started with a push. Otherwise, how are you going to even know about the product in the first place? People in Seattle don't just wake up one morning and think to themselves, "Hey! I want to watch a Korean drama!"

When Jewel In The Palace (Dae Jang Geum) was broadcast in Chicago in 2004 with english subtitles it became popular there. I don't believe it was meant to be. It was simply aired with English subs on one of its channels, as shows sometimes are. After all, Koreans in Chicago do watch the Korean channel too. Who was doing the pushing then? Is it supposed to be odd (or "illegal") to air a foreign show on a foreign channel with subtitles? Well, after the show aired, I started reading of various non-Korean Americans becoming K drama fans, I've seen message boards made by these fans dedicate to DJG and Kdrama in general, buzz of Hanryu to come along months after. That seems like a pull to me.

When you think of K drama, particularly if you're not a fan (and you're just a J drama fan who happens to be obsessed with K drama for other reasons), chances are you're thinking of the Winter Sonata series- snow in the background, scarf-and-glasses dude in the foreground. That show was made in the year 2002. Who was "pushing" this show when it gained the attention that it has in Japan? Across asia, other shows have been popular before it, such as All About Eve, a show which aired in 2000. I'm not sure this series has had any status in Japan but it did do particularly well in places like Signapore, I think. Yet this show's popularity precedes "Hanryu." Who is doing the 100% pushing here? Is someone pushing the people at Yesasia to subtitle and distribute Kdramas too? I'm not sure what you are suggesting.

Hanryu is something of an aposteriori term labeling a cumulative pheneomena that is itself based on shows that weren't originally intended for "Hanryu." Frankly, your posts would be a bit more reasonable if you were claiming this push were recent. Instead, you are claiming the reverse. That theory doesn't work.

That said, there was this one time at another message board where a poster suggested the odd theory that Korean wave became a factor in Japan as a result of the Japanese government's efforts.. something about improving relationships in order to effect an FTA. I give that theory no credence whatsoever, but I suppose it's not impossible. It's interesting.

[groink]

It may be a pull market NOW, but when this whole Korean wave started, it was 100-percent a push. Almost everything in marketing started with a push. Otherwise, how are you going to even know about the product in the first place? People in Seattle don't just wake up one morning and think to themselves, "Hey! I want to watch a Korean drama!"

When Jewel In The Palace (Dae Jang Geum) was broadcast in Chicago in 2004 with english subtitles it became popular there. I don't believe it was meant to be. It was simply aired with English subs on one of its channels, as shows sometimes are. After all, Koreans in Chicago do watch the Korean channel too. Who was doing the pushing then?

In this instance, the TV station in Chicago did the pushing UNLESS people in the broadcast area made the request for the show to be subbed and broadcast. In my experience in Hawaii with KIKU-TV, KIKU-TV and JN Productions did all the pushing back in the 1980's. Today, it's definitely a pull because we're constantly calling the managers there to bring in X and Y.

I've seen message boards made by these fans dedicate to DJG and Kdrama in general, buzz of Hanryu to come along months after. That seems like a pull to me.

Again, it's NOW a pull. Your local TV station in Chicago was the pusher. But now you're doing the pulling by giving them feedback that you like the stuff, and that you want more.

When you think of K drama, particularly if you're not a fan (and you're just a J drama fan who happens to be obsessed with K drama for other reasons), chances are you're thinking of the Winter Sonata series- snow in the background, scarf-and-glasses dude in the foreground. That show was made in the year 2002. Who was "pushing" this show when it gained the attention that it has in Japan?

For the US market, it really started in Hawaii about that time via KBFD-TV. General Manager Jeff Chung of KBFD-TV started pushing the dramas in Hawaii in the 1990's, as a way to promote his Korean heritage. He's talked about this in several places, including the Honolulu Advertiser (local newspaper) and in the various local-based Asian magazines. As for other TV stations in the continental US, much of the shows you saw more likely came from KBFD-TV, just like how KTSF-TV was licensing JN Production's subbed goods back in the 1990's.

As for in Japan, Korean dramas was introduced to them via the NHK network, which is a Japan government-funded TV network, much like PBS in the US. But instead of using subtitles, NHK hired some talento from the Japan entertaiment industry and dubbed shows like Winter Sonata in Japanese. From sources I've read in the past, NHK approached the Koreans and obtained the licenses, and then pushed the content out to the Japanese viewers. Then soon after, it too turned from a push to a pull. NHK obtaining the content wasn't anything special... They've done that sort of thing for decades. In the 1970's, NHK approached NBC and delivered Little House on the Prarie, again dubbed in Japanese. The Japanese didn't ask to see Little House... NHK just pushed it. Remember that one of NHK's goals is to provide their viewers with content from all walks of life, much like how PBS brings in Monty Python from the UK or ballet from Russia.

Rather than addressing every point you made whether it is a pull or push, the point is that in ANY market, it is always a push, UNLESS the consumers out of the blue heard about the product (read it in a magazine, word-of-mouth, or just plain searching for alternative entertainment). A pull that occurs before a push is more likely a totally spontaneous moment. For example, man wanted to cook his meat so that it wouldn't spoil as fast. So they had to invent a method of producing fire anytime they wanted it. That's a pull market. More recent, an average man without any government or college/university ties wanted Internet access, so he demanded that the Internet become privatized. That's a pull market. If he didn't demand Internet access, the Internet would still consist of only schools and government.

The ONLY way your argument of Korean entertainment originally being a pull market would work is if the people spontaneously made the telephone calls and asked the TV stations to start subbing and televising Korean dramas, without any encouragement from the TV stations or Korean TV networks.

For a clearer definition of push-pull strategies, read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push-Pull_strategy

--- groink

[Ssang]

I think that's straying through equivocatoins. In one sense, pretty much everything is a push, however that is not the sense I got when I've read your rants about "the Koreans" in this and the other thread. One wonders why you make such a big deal out of it.

[groink]

I think that's straying through equivocatoins. In one sense, pretty much everything is a push, however that is not the sense I got when I've read your rants about "the Koreans" in this and the other thread. One wonders why you make such a big deal out of it.

I believe I've been consistent with my writings on my blog, on the KIKU-TV board and on D-Addicts. I've always said the South Korean industry is aggressively pushing their content. Whether it is directly to the consumer, using local TV stations like KBFD-TV, or through printed and on-line media - they're the ones doing the pushing.

When I make a huge deal out of it, it is when someone starts comparing the Korean drama market to the Japanese drama market, saying the Koreans are doing everything right and the Japanese is missing (or ignoring) the opportunity, which is the inspiration of this topic, and which is my argument all this time. For example, in my blog, people write to me saying that In the US, the Korean drama market is kicking the crap out of the Japanese market, when in fact it isn't true at all. When it comes to the US market, the Koreans are all by themselves because the Japanese do not market their dramas in the US. I do not appreciate the comparison when in fact there is no US-based Japanese drama market to compare with. It gives the naive people out there the impression that the Japanese are not using common sense, when in fact they're using their freedom by deciding to keep their dramas within Japan. Again, I've never publicly ranted about people watching Korean dramas. I only rant when the comparison with Japanese dramas are made. That opens up Pandora's box. And when they do so, I'm coming out with guns-a-blazing, defending the Japanese dramas I heavily favor!!!!

And remember, I also criticize the Japanese full-on. There are some big issues with the geinokai that I have. So I criticize even the industries that I like - fair and balanced.

--- groink

[Twilight Ronin]

Indeed.

Additionally I don't think that the market in the west would be as big as people claim.

Consider this: How many Korean or Japanese movies really make it into our cinemas? Sure, they appear at movie festivals. But how many really manage to be released into our cinemas in a way like the average Hollywood movie makes it? 2 per year? Maybe even just 1? Personally, I can't remember any Japanese or Korean movie that had a regular release around here in 2005. Hmm, in fact, I think Chakushin Ari had a normal release, but only in Germany (and Norway I think). Needless to say that only a few people saw it, even when compared to German movies.

Or take German TV series that usually have higher ratios than any US series that hits the screens here. It's normal. Surely people watch the US series, but no US series on German TV can compete with the old Lindenstrasse, for example, when it comes to viewer ratios and market share.

If they are released? They're either dubbed (oivech) or subbed. And the same old problem comes back. I've heard people say "Why are you watching this stuff? I don't like reading when watching a movie". I'd say that's the majority.

But, there are Japanese series on TV in the west. Believe it or not. The German station VOX has been showing Kozure Okami. Now, here comes the "fun" part. The series is dubbed into German and is usually boradcasted after midnight on Friday nights and you get 5 episodes at once. It's currently the only non-anime series from Japan that made it on German screens. The fanbase is small, I'd say, mainly those who have watched Japanese stuff already. There is a German DVD edition of the first 6 episodes available on amazon, that's it. That's all there is.

Personally I think that's the maximum you can get. I don't think that there's a "big market" for that stuff in the west. There are people in the west who like it, and that's good. But I'm 100% sure you'll never see Gokusen 2 on prime time TV in the west. Simply because who would watch it? Hans Mayer in Düsseldorf who just came home from working at a steel factory? Or Josie Smith in Crackapplecove, Maine, who just came home from working at the local burger drive-in? Surely not. Hans would go for some football or the latest Big Brother, or maybe he'd watch the latest "Wetten dass?" because Janet Jackson is there and there might be another chance for a boob-flashing incident, Josie would go for the latest edition of Oprah... The people who'd watch it would remain a minority. Think over it, how many people do you all know IRL who watch Japanese or Korean TV series? Then compare it to how many people you know IRL who watch Baywatch, Star Trek, etc...

I'd give my right arm and leg if the German/French arte would show Gokusen, or Beach Boys, after all, arte is the one station that shows most Japanese and Korean movies around here (usually just subbed). But will they ever show Gokusen? Beach Boys? Or even Remote? I seriously doubt it. Same goes for DVD releases in the west. I don't think any western publisher will release DVDs with a series that has never been seen on our TV screens.

[deathstar550]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the drama scene always been bigger than the movie scene in Japan? That could explain why we don't get so many J-films in the West...

[groink]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the drama scene always been bigger than the movie scene in Japan? That could explain why we don't get so many J-films in the West...

According to a NHK poll conducted in 2000, 95-percent of Japan watch TV every day. This includes drama, variety shows, documentaries, morning dramas, etc. I'm willing to bet dramas beat out movie viewership (in theaters) by a landslide.

http://www.ojr.org/japan/media/1055376363.php

Does this have an effect over the exportation of Japanese movies to the West? This would definitely be a pull market. Although there are Japanese movies with Englsh subtitles in the legal market, I think Americans would rather see these Japanese movies re-made to make it feel more westernized - like they did with movies like Ringu, JU-ON, etc. There was a discussion on D-Addicts awhile back about a Korean-blooded American who was making a lot of money buying up licenses to Asian films, and then re-selling them to Hollywood movie companies. So basically the Japanese movie scripts are reaching America - but they're just re-packaged.

Search around for my comments about cultural identification. I've written quite a bit about it.

EDIT - Found the topic!!!!

http://www.d-addicts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27175

--- groink

[Shindou]

I don't see why it is considered a missed opportunity. Not to sound like a broken record but Japanese TV stations are targeting the Japanese market and it certainly makes no sense why they would need to actively push for jdramas to become popular outside of Japan. Mainstream America is still pretty self-centred (I'm certain there are individuals who are not) and still rather protectionist, whether we're talking about dramas or international trade. And to be fair, other countries are, to certain degrees, protectionist as well to maintain their own cultures and keep their sense of identity. Only countries that seek to actively promote their interests elsewhere or extend their sphere of influence would attempt to export mainstream culture-related material to other places with the USA being the most apparent example in this case but there are others).

As for myself, I'm rather glad that due to the internet and fansubs, people can actively watch shows from other countries and learn more about other cultures and what life is usually like in other countries (taken, of course, with a grain of salt since TV doesn't always portray reality 100% but does give a general idea). This, I think, is the key point since it allows those who choose to expose themselves to different things the opportunity to do so while also allowing those who don't wish to experience genuine cultural exports (as compared to fabricated stereotypical ones) to remain as they were.

[Gir]

Indeed.

Additionally I don't think that the market in the west would be as big as people claim.
There are people in the west who like it, and that's good. But I'm 100% sure you'll never see Gokusen 2 on prime time TV in the west. Simply because who would watch it?

KSCI 18, which aired the first season of The Gokusen back in 2003, will be airing season 2 starting October 16th at 9pm. The series will be broadcast as part of a Japanese block of Japanese broadcasting prepared by UTB. UTB has informed us that most of their dramas, including The Gokusen season 2, have English subtitles.

KSCI is a Los Angeles, CA station and 9:00 is still pretty much prime time, all in all it really doesn't count for much as a "mainstream" showing but still it was on.

[expo1970]

Prince of Moles, I will buy your argument that Japanese government has at certain times tried to force its businesses overseas. However, I think the government of Japan doesn't do it now because it doesn't need to, not because it doesn't work (as you have stated). Korea right now needs to for its products to sell. Now the question for the future is whether one day, Korean products will be able to sell without government help...

But back to the main topic, Japanese people in the end don't care whether their television dramas are successful overseas or not. Television producers are not going to actively sell their products overseas because they're already successful enough already domestically and they have grown up to think that other countries hate Japan anyway, so the products will not sell. Japan still doesn't have a true capitalism in the sense that people still think its bad or people still don't have the desire to make too much money. (e.g. horie takafumi).