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The Korean Wave: Is It Really Waning?

Anhyong haseyo. Post Korean related stuff here.
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kobe23
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The Korean Wave: Is It Really Waning?

Post by kobe23 » Mar 28th, '08, 13:53

In recent times there has been much talk about how the Korean Wave is waning due to lackluster Box Office results from local movies, decrease in CD sales and most notably, a reduction in k-drama exports to countries such as Japan and Taiwan etc.

But recently I came across these two videos which seemed to suggest the Korean Wave is far from waning, and if anything, might even become bigger and bigger especially with the huge economic benefits from companies such as Samsung and LG.

First Video:

Features Daniel Henney and Song Hye Kyo

Second Video:

I find this video very interesting and informative. Anyone who wants to learn more about the Korean Wave and understand the economic benefits it has to Korean companies must watch this video.

---

So what do you guys think? I feel the Korean wave will only get stronger and it will get to the point where Korean entertainment becomes mainstream across Asia much like the way American entertainment is now. Let's not forget we are the first generation to embrace Korean pop culture and once we spread our addiction to our friends and families, there is no turning back. :)

Anyway, watch those 2 videos! Very interesting stuff.

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Post by Hanjae » Mar 29th, '08, 02:20

I think, rather than the Korean Wave waning, it's just the initial hype that's waning. I remember several years ago, when Dae Jang Geum came out, everyone across Asia was just in awe over it. I was in Hong Kong at the time, and seriously, people talked about NOTHING ELSE XD Kids on the streets were all rushing off to buy hanboks, everyone was making DJG parodies, Lee Young Ae was practically worshipped and you can't go a day without hearing her (or DJG) mentioned on TV. It was crazy.

It seems it's died down now, but I think rather than the initial shock (Wow why didn't I ever get into Korean stuff before? etc) and interest, it's become more widespread. Notice there are many, many fans of Japanese dramas/idols, but you don't notice an all out crazy hype - that's because the initial wave has already crashed and it's slowly spreading to become a common thing to obsess over, so to speak. I think that's what is happening to Korean culture now. It's more and more common for people to say they're into Kpop stars and Kdramas, whereas a while ago, it was considerably less popular.

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Post by groink » Mar 29th, '08, 07:49

Hanjae wrote:I think, rather than the Korean Wave waning, it's just the initial hype that's waning.
You're exactly correct. I don't think many of you remember what I'm about to bring up... Throughout much of the 1970s, Japan enjoyed their own Japanese wave of sorts. They didn't actually call it a "wave", but much of what you see with the Korean wave today occurred back then for the Japanese - and WITHOUT help from the Internet. The Japanese geinokai was paying visits around the world putting on concerts and appearing in movies. The Japanese junk food craze started during that time, with Cup Noodle being the biggest hit of them all. Groups like The Candies and Pink Lady entered American entertainment; Pink Lady even had their own TV variety show on NBC.

And, just like things Korean today, things Japanese didn't actually disappear. Rather, they stabilized and would eventually dip down just slight. But you still may scars of the Japanese 1970s, such as sentai tokusatsu shows like Power Ranger, karaoke and anime. American TV stations are showing more Japanese shows than they ever did. And, Japanese pop music is still big - probably bigger right now than any other Eastern Asian pop market. And let's remember symbolic trademarks like Hello Kitty and Glico.

The exact same thing is going to happen to the Korean wave. Everyone who would eventually feel the effect have already done so, so not too many more people are being introduced to things Korean as much as they did just one year ago. And in a few years, something else will come along... Maybe a Hong Kong wave or even a Malaysian wave. Think about it - if the Korean Wave were to last forever, it wouldn't even be called a wave but rather a permanent rise of the ocean level (and they'd probably blame that on global warming.)

--- groink

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Post by kobe23 » Mar 31st, '08, 15:03

Hmm...I dunno, did you guys even watch the videos I posted? :) It seems to suggest the Korean Wave is not at its highest level yet and is actually starting to build up like a Tsunami. Especially when you consider there are many Korean artists entering the US market like Rain, Se7en, Lee Byung Hun etc. and numerous Korean movie rights have been purchased to be remade by American film studios.

As Hanjae said, the initial hype might have waned, but the actual wave has not, and looks like it will continue with its meteoric rise for a while yet. Something else will come along after that as suggested by groink, but a Hong Kong wave? Didn't we already have a HK wave in the 80s and early 90s? Back when hard boiled action/triad movies were extremely popular with legendary actors such as Chow Yun Fat, Tony Leung and Andy Lau. And of course, who could forget Jackie Chan and his martial arts movies? There definitely won't be another HK wave.

I think (hope) the Korean Wave is still in its infancy, and when you consider the wired world that we currently live in, the message being spread is of a much grander scale than that of previous waves.

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Post by belleza » Mar 31st, '08, 18:37

differentiates Hallyu from other Asian waves is that Korea has a missionary sense of their culture. It's not just business; there's an intense sense of national pride that comes from other cultures (Jewel in the Palace is the #1 show in Iran!!) enjoying their shows, music, food, whatever.

That said, there is Chinese and Japanese backlash over Korean product. The formulaic plots. Emphasis on short-span bubblegum pop. Jumong/Legend. Some bad international press from A-list celebrities. And in Korea itself, there's been a kind of Japanese mini-wave in music and dramas. A lot of Netizens would rather watch J-dramas and TW-dramas than K-dramas now.

The growth has been in going beyond Asia. The truth is, that is on the bubble right now. You have Rain/Jang Dong Gun/Lee Byung Hun/Jun Ji Hyun all trying to cross over here into film at the same time. You have Se7en trying to cross over musically. And so on. It could all blow up in Korea's face all at the same time.

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Post by groink » Mar 31st, '08, 20:40

kobe23 wrote:Hmm...I dunno, did you guys even watch the videos I posted? :) It seems to suggest the Korean Wave is not at its highest level yet and is actually starting to build up like a Tsunami.
I watched the video. But that doesn't mean it is fact. Has anyone considered the possibility that this Korean stuff just isn't as great as you guys keep thinking it is? I mean, the previous HK and Japanese waves didn't have this "in your face" level of publicity. Seriously, no one even noticed that the Japanese wave even occurred until years after. The major reason for the backlash with things Korean is that the country for some reason or another has this major obsession that they're the best thing on Earth. And, like religion and politics, NO ONE likes it when the Korean culture is pushed. It makes them look ethnocentric. Seriously, it does! This Korean pride gives the impression that they were pushed around for centuries and only NOW are they trying to tell the world they're no longer going to be bulled.

I saw this exact same thing with the hispanics. Throughout the 1990s, there was this huge hispanic wave in America. Selina, Mark Anthony, George Lopez, the Latino Grammy, the macarena, tex-mex... There was just too much of it!!!! And that wave pretty much died down as well.

I really can't phantom why people fall in love with stuff just because it belongs to the Korean culture. IMHO, it just shows how dissatisfied these people are with their own cultures. I like each and everything because of how it stands alone, and NOT because it is associated with something much bigger like the Korean culture. I like BoA, but not because she's Korean. I like Matsuda Seiko not because she's Japanese. You guys are proposing the idea that just because the product comes out of Korean that everyone will love it despite the quality of it. To me, that form of logic is messed up and ethnocentric. And it is going to burst SOON!

We're things Korean so you gotta love us!!!! Yeah, right. For every guy who loves things Korean, there are ten of us who are disturbed and turned off by it.

--- groink

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Post by belleza » Mar 31st, '08, 21:30

I mean, the previous HK and Japanese waves didn't have this "in your face" level of publicity.
Yeah, there's both good and bad sides to it. Korea's been aggressive with marketing their pop culture (and Korea's Netizen community is best at spreading the stuff around), and it's a big reason why Hallyu has come so far. BUT, again, then there's been backlash in China and Japan over that marketing, partially because it sometimes implies their product is perhaps superior to the domestic brand. This is especially piquant between China and Korea, and this side is not represented in the video. Some feel that there's a lack of self-awareness coming from the marketing. Kobe23 -- remember that scene from All In when Lee Byung Hun teaches TKD to the cholos? That's Hallyu marketing right there! :D

If we're just talking about the drama format, many Korean producers want to try out a shorter J-drama style format with more original storylines. Partially because the younger Korean viewers are mostly watching non-Korean shows (esp. American and Japanese dramas.) And partially because their marketing has also suggested it would be easier to market their product internationally if the shows were shorter and, you know, not all soaps. So from business and artistic standpoints, they want to do more shows like Hello Franceska, Soulmate, White Tower, Time of Dog and Wolf, etc, but they keep fighting inertia from the primary ajuhmma viewing audience that prefers the longer, soapier style shows with more conventional storylines. (Not necessarily a bad thing BTW. That same audience is also why idol dramas will never take over Korea in the same way it has in Taiwan and Japan. Even adults who grew up on Shinhwa don't necessarily all like Eric as an actor.)

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Post by groink » Apr 1st, '08, 01:34

Let me say this....

It is a good thing for an artist to have dreams and aspirations. But he should achieve greatness because he is very good at something, such as acting, singing, dancing, juggling, playing a sport, or whatever else. What he should NOT expect is for people to like him just because he belongs to a culture.

That's what I'm trying to get at. The Koreans think that all they have to do is be Korean, and push and push their way all over the planet so that people will like them. Earlier, someone said that Korea may be just as mainstream as America. I have a huge problem with this train of thought. First of all, many things American are not popular because they're associated with America. Each artist is popular because of HIM, not because he's from America. Again, when Koreans and their fans say something bold such as Koreans are just as good as Americans, that's ethnocentrism and elitism.

Why now? Why didn't Korea become mainstream decades ago? Don't say that X or Y prevented them from reaching out. Korea had just as much of an opportunity as any other nation in Asia. The Japanese did it in the 1970s without all the hoopla behind it. And they didn't even plan it. Think about it - the Japanese aren't exactly trying to reach out to the rest of the world. As a matter of fact, there are many thing they've done in the last 10 years that prevent them from becoming mainstream. If something Japanese become popular, it is purely by accident and not because you have a bunch of hot-blooded Japanese nationalists running around knocking on everyone's doors and mailboxes. That's basically how I see the Koreans - just a nation filled with "Look at me! Look at me!" folks. I mean, why can't they be like many other nations and just enjoy the fact that they're big in their own country? Fricking bunch of posers if you ask me!

--- groink

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Post by kobe23 » Apr 1st, '08, 14:28

groink wrote:
kobe23 wrote:Hmm...I dunno, did you guys even watch the videos I posted? :) It seems to suggest the Korean Wave is not at its highest level yet and is actually starting to build up like a Tsunami.
I watched the video. But that doesn't mean it is fact. Has anyone considered the possibility that this Korean stuff just isn't as great as you guys keep thinking it is?
Let's backtrack to about 1990. If someone suggested to you Samsung would be right up there with Sony in the consumer electronics market within 20 years time, would you not have questioned their sanity? The fact is, Samsung is now #1 in the electronics industry and recently overtook Motorola to be the 2nd biggest mobile phone manufacturer only behind Nokia. Korean cars such as Hyundai and Kia have also made giant leaps and it won't be long before they can rival the Japanese brands. All this progress over a relatively short period of time is quite remarkable if you ask me, and certainly from any neutral perspective.
This Korean pride gives the impression that they were pushed around for centuries and only NOW are they trying to tell the world they're no longer going to be bulled.
That might well be the case, but what's wrong with standing up for yourself? Koreans now have the confidence in themselves and their products and now they have a story to tell, or a product to sell :)
I saw this exact same thing with the hispanics. Throughout the 1990s, there was this huge hispanic wave in America. Selina, Mark Anthony, George Lopez, the Latino Grammy, the macarena, tex-mex... There was just too much of it!!!! And that wave pretty much died down as well.
I haven't really followed things in America over the past 2 years (washed up by the korean wave!), but I thought Latin-American stuff is still as strong as ever. Jennifer Lopez, Eva Longoria, Shakira ... yeah I know the first two were American born & raised but there's a huge Latino influence in JLo's work at least.
I really can't phantom why people fall in love with stuff just because it belongs to the Korean culture. IMHO, it just shows how dissatisfied these people are with their own cultures.
That might be true, but once again, what's wrong with that? If our own cultures produce inferior products, should we not seek something better? Why do you think Americanization is happening all over the world? For some of us though, we're a bit fed up of American pop culture and have discovered that Korean stuff is a great alternative.

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Post by kobe23 » Apr 1st, '08, 14:46

groink wrote:Let me say this....

[Bunch of Anti-Korean sentiment snipped]
LOL groink, you make it sound like Koreans are a bunch or arrogant pricks! You're also insinuating Hallyu fans are mindless drones who follow everything Korean. Have you ever considered that possibly, we like Korean entertainment, their artists and products because it's actually high in quality and not simply because they're Korean? I drive a Kia, my mobile phone is a Samsung and my LCD monitor is made by LG. But guess what?! I purchased those products before I even knew about Korean entertainment!

Basically what I'm saying is that the Korean wave is not something which will be forgotten quickly. It's not gonna blow over just like that. It's only just begun :)

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Post by groink » Apr 1st, '08, 18:29

I didn't think electronics was a part of the Korean wave. I still don't think it is. Again, you're labeling by association. If everyone at Samsung or LG were Korean nationalists, then that's one thing. But from my sources, there are many engineers there that originate from places like the Phillipines, India, Japan, America... Rain is a product of Korea and the wave. Don't assume that corporations are. Same goes with Sony. Same with Microsoft. Same with ANY corporation in this world. If there's any one company that is a part of any wave, that would be Apple Inc. And the things I hear coming out of those Apple fanboys are no different than this Korean wave movement.

My whole point here is quite simple: People like yourself think that just by association things Korean are not only going to get better, but that other cultures, traditions and entertainment industries are going to be pushed aside because of it. THAT'S what I mean by people pushing the movement as being elitists. BoA, the TV dramas, and any other forms of art coming out of Korea compete against others based on their QUALITY. The whole wave movement is based on a bunch of people who, for example, watch a TV drama and then start eating the food because of the TV drama. This train of thought is so much near that of sheep. So YES, you are correct in that I'm insinuating that Hallyu fans are in fact mindless drones who follow everything Korean. THAT'S the entire foundation of the Hallyu!

Based on logic alone, if something else in this world comes along that's just as addicting as things Korean, those Korean things will be pushed aside - along with things Japanese and American. So that would blow your theory. But you believe that things Korean are going to keep increasing in quality and popularity regardless of what might happen in the future. Elitism and ethnocentrism - big time!

--- groink

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Post by joykimlee » Apr 1st, '08, 18:54

Was totally into kdramas since 2001. But since 2006, i ditched kdramas for jdramas. Kdramas have outdone their melancholy romantic plots. Jdramas on the other hand have much more interesting plots condensed into 10 eps. Nevertheless i still enjoy Korean food n fashion.

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Post by lilswtangel » Apr 1st, '08, 19:03

While I can't state for everybody that the Hallyu wave is waning since there are new people being introduced to Korean films and dramas everyday, I can say that my own interest in Korean films/dramas have dissipated over the years.

Not that anyone is interested, but from my own experience:
I first stumbled upon D-Addicts in search of Korean dramas (some of the more household well-known ones in the early 2000's) because at the time the Hallyu Wave was at its strongest with the release of "Winter Sonata", "Stairway to Heaven", and the likes. However, given time, I gradually grew bored and sometimes even annoyed with them to the point that I have almost virtually stopped downloading them. Now I only watch the older ones that I've hoarded or re-watch the ones that I have enjoyed in the past. (with the exception of Hong Dil Gong which I have to say is pretty great!).

What constituted for the Hallyu wave in the early 2000's? It was probably the "Bae Yong Jun craze" all across East Asia (and in particular, Japan "Yon-sama") after "Winter Sonata" aired and the Korean film, "My Sassy Girl" probably had some influence then since it was a well-received success.

We don't see a lot of Bae Yong Jun or Jun Ji Hyun in many of the more recent kdramas nowadays.

On the other hand, I eagerly await on the arrivals on new jdramas because somehow they've become much more appealing to me and have quickly replaced my kdrama obsession in the last 3 years.

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Post by marie_23 » Apr 1st, '08, 19:31

lilswtangel wrote:While I can't state for everybody that the Hallyu wave is waning since there are new people being introduced to Korean films and dramas everyday, I can say that my own interest in Korean films/dramas have dissipated over the years.

Not that anyone is interested, but from my own experience:
I first stumbled upon D-Addicts in search of Korean dramas (some of the more household well-known ones in the early 2000's) because at the time the Hallyu Wave was at its strongest with the release of "Winter Sonata", "Stairway to Heaven", and the likes. However, given time, I gradually grew bored and sometimes even annoyed with them to the point that I have almost virtually stopped downloading them. Now I only watch the older ones that I've hoarded or re-watch the ones that I have enjoyed in the past. (with the exception of Hong Dil Gong which I have to say is pretty great!).

What constituted for the Hallyu wave in the early 2000's? It was probably the "Bae Yong Jun craze" all across East Asia (and in particular, Japan "Yon-sama") after "Winter Sonata" aired and the Korean film, "My Sassy Girl" probably had some influence then since it was a well-received success.

We don't see a lot of Bae Yong Jun or Jun Ji Hyun in many of the more recent kdramas nowadays.

On the other hand, I eagerly await on the arrivals on new jdramas because somehow they've become much more appealing to me and have quickly replaced my kdrama obsession in the last 3 years.
You found D-addicts similar to how I stumbled across it. I was originally just looking for Meteor Garden becuase I was a big fan of the manga Hana Yori Dango and wanted to see a film based on it. So, I search the web and D-Addicts came up at the time I think the wave was going on for Korean dramas. I noticed people talking about "Full House", Sassy Girl, My Little Bride, Winter Sonata etc... So, I watched them too.

I was hooked to Korean dramas after watching "Full House" :lol However, after three years of Korean drama watching I grew bored also. The plots started to seem like long repeats the same old stuff. Now, I still like Korean dramas but not as much as I use to back when I got into them. I've started watching other asian dramas shows and some have turned out pretty good.

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Post by Puppet Princess » Apr 1st, '08, 20:27

lilswtangel wrote:We don't see a lot of Bae Yong Jun or Jun Ji Hyun in many of the more recent kdramas nowadays.
*cough* Legend..... lol And Jun Ji Hyun does movies not dramas.

I admit I stopped watching a lot of Kdramas for a while for the same reasons. They got old. I usually only watch a few fully each season because only a few are actually that good.

But Kdramas have evolved in the past couple years. There used to be A LOT of extremely tragic stories where everyone died. It's what sold. But then the "OMG I have cancer?!?!" story grew old. Sure it's great the first couple times but then.... it's predictable and depressing.

These days when a show tosses in cancer it seems to be the kiss of death. Bad Couple for example, was great until.... half way through cancer killed the cute and funny love story that people were baited with.

More Korean shows are becoming comedies and more are having happy...er endings. Even some recent tragedies ended on up notes, like Snow Queen. Instead of making it the depressing cliched tragic ending everyone expected.... they turned it around at the last minuet to surprise you with a bittersweet happy ending.

As far as the wave goes. What with Asian networks in America being more common now I feel Korean entertainment has become more... normal. Less people are surprised when you mention Kdramas. Back when Dal Ja was airing I was IMing with a friend. He asked what I was doing I told him "watching Dal Ja" expecting to have to explain what that meant when he gave a confused reply. But what did he say? "Oh, Dal Ja's Spring? I was watching some of that at someone else's dorm room the other day. It's pretty good." I was floored. This came from one of the last people I ever expected to have seen a Kdrama.

So whether Kdramas and Korean Pop stars are still popular or not the initial "OH! What's this?!" excitement has died down some. That doesn't mean the entertainment will stop coming. It just means it's more normal for it to come.

And about Korean's being full of themselves.... so what?
America is worse even if you try to deny it.
American movies and TV shows are shown in almost every country that has an entertainment industry. And not on special "American Entertainment networks."
America shamelessly exports all their entertainment and have been since forever. Yet it isn't until more recently that we have imported entertainment and even close to the same volume. (it still isn't even close) And what is imported isn't aired on the main networks still. It's special networks or local channels.

So, who are we to put labels on them for pushing crappy shows on us when we do the same thing with our crappy shows?

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Post by lilswtangel » Apr 1st, '08, 20:33

^LOL~ but "Legend" was BYJ's first and as of now, only, kdrama in nearly 5 years (especially since "Winter Sonata")

sadly, I haven't even watched it yet. Maybe I'll give it a try....:)

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Post by Puppet Princess » Apr 1st, '08, 20:46

Well.... why work when Japan has let him milk the crap out of Winter Sonta? They are still doing it too what with the Winter Sonata anime he's voicing.... lol

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Post by belleza » Apr 1st, '08, 21:32

Speaking of the influence of J-drama on Korea, who's up for the Korean version of Nodame Cantabille? (Or a show roughly inspired by it?) :D

http://www.dramabeans.com/2008/04/lee-j ... iolin-bow/

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Post by kobe23 » Apr 2nd, '08, 13:44

groink wrote:I didn't think electronics was a part of the Korean wave. I still don't think it is.
Well yes, I guess electronics isn't directly part of the Korean wave, but I used it as an example that people aren't into Korean stuff just because it's Korean, but because it's good.
Again, you're labeling by association. If everyone at Samsung or LG were Korean nationalists, then that's one thing. But from my sources, there are many engineers there that originate from places like the Phillipines, India, Japan, America... Rain is a product of Korea and the wave. Don't assume that corporations are.
You're being way too technical here. Yes, I'm sure there are Samsung engineers who come from all over the world, but at the end of the day, it's still a Korean company which produces what the public recognizes as Korean products.
The whole wave movement is based on a bunch of people who, for example, watch a TV drama and then start eating the food because of the TV drama. This train of thought is so much near that of sheep. So YES, you are correct in that I'm insinuating that Hallyu fans are in fact mindless drones who follow everything Korean. THAT'S the entire foundation of the Hallyu!
The whole point of the post was about whether the Korean wave is waning, and not about the consequences of people's behavior due to the wave. Regardless, I still don't see the problem with people eating food because they saw it in a TV drama. In your mind you see that as being a sheep, but that's what popular culture is all about. You see people tour Korea because of a TV drama; are they sheep too?
Based on logic alone, if something else in this world comes along that's just as addicting as things Korean, those Korean things will be pushed aside - along with things Japanese and American. So that would blow your theory. But you believe that things Korean are going to keep increasing in quality and popularity regardless of what might happen in the future. Elitism and ethnocentrism - big time!
I never said Korean things will increase in quality and popularity forever! Of course something else will come along and push it aside, but at this stage it still looks likes it's gonna grow. And believe it or not, but currently there are many people (including myself) who have totally ditched American entertainment in favor of Korean entertainment. That is quite significant considering American entertainment is the primary form of entertainment in most developed countries. If you look at past waves like the HK wave, it really was just an "on-the-side" kinda thing and was never meant to be a replacement to American entertainment.

But most importantly though, I don't see anything elitist or ethnocentric about the whole Korean wave thing. I think you're being a bit cynical about that groink :)

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Post by kobe23 » Apr 2nd, '08, 14:00

marie_23 wrote: I was hooked to Korean dramas after watching "Full House" :lol However, after three years of Korean drama watching I grew bored also. The plots started to seem like long repeats the same old stuff. Now, I still like Korean dramas but not as much as I use to back when I got into them. I've started watching other asian dramas shows and some have turned out pretty good.
But are you enjoying other Asian dramas as much as in your prime of watching Korean dramas?

After two years of k-dramas, I am too, finding it to be a bit repetitive, but k-dramas are constantly evolving and doesn't seem to stagnate as much as say Chinese dramas. But the Korean wave is more than just about dramas. It's about the movies, the music, the food and pretty much everything else Korean :) And in that regard, I still think it's going strong.

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Post by belleza » Apr 4th, '08, 00:39

After two years of k-dramas, I am too, finding it to be a bit repetitive, but k-dramas are constantly evolving and doesn't seem to stagnate as much as say Chinese dramas
This year's shaping up to be Hallyu Mania. We got Illjimae, East of Eden, Dae Mool, Spotlight, Gourmet, Beethoven Virus (remake of Nodame), Painter of the Wind, maybe Cain and Abel, maybe Boys over Flowers, maybe When It's At Night. In terms of ratings, oh yes there will be blood. :lol

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Post by lilswtangel » Apr 4th, '08, 15:45

^sounds very tempting.........

and if the selected casts of any of those kdramas is like the one for Boys Over Flowers, I'm game~ :lol

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Post by jess22 » Apr 4th, '08, 16:20

I agree with Hanjae's sentiment that the wave isn't so much waning as it is becoming normalized. A lot of non-Korean Asians are now familiar with Korean entertainment and culture that it's now a part of their lifestyle.

What I mean is, during the wave, most people were willing to watch anything that was Korean, just because that's the trend. But now, the viewers are much more savvy and will actually pick and choose which shows to watch.

So k-dramas need to be that much better to get their attention.

This is just like the Hong Kong wave and the Japanese wave. Initially anything from those areas was deemed super-trendy, but now it's more normalized and people are pickier.

***

This competition is good though and I do think any country in the region could pick it up again.

The one reason America media is so popular is that they get talent from all over the world (well mainly English-speaking talent). So because of that, they are able to attract a larger market.

Another reason is how much money American production companies put into their entertainment. With budgets like that, it's no wonder they are so prominent.

So that's what I would love to see happen in Asian entertainment. Where various production companies pool together their resources and talent to produce quality entertainment. How great would it be to see stars from China, Korean, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc. ?

The only problem would be either standardizing on a language, or somehow improve the dubbing technology/methods.

Anyway, sorry for going off topic a bit!

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Post by belleza » Apr 5th, '08, 00:11

[QUOTE}and if the selected casts of any of those kdramas is like the one for Boys Over Flowers,[/QUOTE]

I just hope they take a page from Meteor Garden and recast the show in college. Korea doesn't really have the equivalent of a "Johnny drama", and so it would be difficult finding strong <22 leads for all F4 and Makino. For example, I don't think you could cast Lee Min Ki as a teenager now.

The past 2 years, there's definitely been a "J-wave" in Korea, and Korea's produced some of their most memorable dramas from Japanese sources. 200 Lbs Beauty, Dal Ja Spring, One Fine Day, I Am Sam, Alone in Love, White Tower, etc. To me, the most interesting remake is going to be the remake of Nodame Cantabile (i.e Beethoven Virus.) Nodame was such a hit in Korea (and the rest of Asia of course) that Ueno Juri visited Korea to do press. I even said in the Korean HYD thread that Nodame, due to its unique style, was a "untouchable" show for adaptation and didn't think any country would even try. But, that all changed for me when the director of Damo and Fashion 70s signed up for the project. Given the talent going into the project, this could be a great drama.

Now if only somebody would make a Korean or Japanese version of Mars . . .
What I mean is, during the wave, most people were willing to watch anything that was Korean, just because that's the trend. But now, the viewers are much more savvy and will actually pick and choose which shows to watch.
I think for me, the key appeal of Hallyu has been how foreign investment and international sales has enabled Korean dramas to reach higher artistically. From the very first episode of The Legend, it's just so obvious that this benchmark-setting event (similar to what Damo was in 2003) could not have been possible without the "Hallyu economy."

But, alternately, the continuing influence of Japanese, Taiwanese, and American product into Korea has also reshaped audience expectations of what a good show should be. The "made for cable" cult dramas that OCN and other cable stations are financing are the future of K-drama. Combining elements associated with Korean film, Japanese drama, and American cable TV, the difference in the quality of writing, topical originality, and direction is staggering, like comparing HBO to ABC. And, regardless of they perform domestically (a 1% rating is considered well enough for a cable drama, talk about being free from expectations!), they procure international sales (especially to the Western/North American market) in order to subsidize the costs of making these dramas. It's a matter of economic and market entropy that K-drama will evolve into doing their own Wire, their own Sopranos. They've already done a take on Sex and the City.
How great would it be to see stars from China, Korean, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc. ?
Yeah I think Chinese-Korean collaborations (i.e. Jang Nara, Chae Rim) have become common now. Probably moreso in the future as Mandarin continues to be offered in all Asian schools. Also, there's significant overlap in net culture -- you got Chinese and Korean netizens, Chinese and Korean ullzangs, probably Chinese and Korean plastic surgeons . . .

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Post by kobe23 » Apr 6th, '08, 14:03

jess22 wrote: So k-dramas need to be that much better to get their attention.
I don't think it's as simple as just making better dramas. I think I'm not wrong in saying that most people regard the first k-drama they've seen as their favorite - Not necessarily because it's the best, but because of the initial excitement of the "first time" and the sentimental value thereafter. The 2 dramas I remember most are Full House and Autumn Tale. I still have very fond and vivid memories of those dramas but they are nowhere near the best I've seen.
This competition is good though and I do think any country in the region could pick it up again.
I don't ever see HK entertainment at the levels it was in the 80s and 90s again. These days everything coming out of Hong Kong cinema seems like something cooked up by EEG just to promote Twins and Edison Chen . Pre-scandal anyway :)
Another reason is how much money American production companies put into their entertainment. With budgets like that, it's no wonder they are so prominent.
Having a big budget helps a great deal when it comes to marketing, but I have found Hollywood, despite spending hundreds of millions more than Chungmuro, can still produce an vastly inferior product. Just look at their remakes of Asian films!
So that's what I would love to see happen in Asian entertainment. Where various production companies pool together their resources and talent to produce quality entertainment. How great would it be to see stars from China, Korean, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc. ?

The only problem would be either standardizing on a language, or somehow improve the dubbing technology/methods.
That is great to see collaborations between the big Asian countries and it has already happened with little success. Perhaps the language barrier is a problem as you said, but I don't think improving dubbing methods is the answer :)

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Post by jess22 » Apr 6th, '08, 16:56

belleza wrote:I think for me, the key appeal of Hallyu has been how foreign investment and international sales has enabled Korean dramas to reach higher artistically. From the very first episode of The Legend, it's just so obvious that this benchmark-setting event (similar to what Damo was in 2003) could not have been possible without the "Hallyu economy."
That's one thing that really impresses me with k-dramas is how much they pay attention to the details. From clothing, to music, to the sets.

Like in Coffee Prince and Soulmate the music as just fantastic and really fit the scene. And like you mentioned, in The Legend the sets and clothing were amazing.

belleza wrote:Yeah I think Chinese-Korean collaborations (i.e. Jang Nara, Chae Rim) have become common now. Probably moreso in the future as Mandarin continues to be offered in all Asian schools. Also, there's significant overlap in net culture -- you got Chinese and Korean netizens, Chinese and Korean ullzangs, probably Chinese and Korean plastic surgeons . . .
I know these collaborations do pretty well in China & Taiwan. But do you know how they fare in Korea? Are people turned off by the dubbing? Or do they re-dub it in Korean?

They re-dubbed Bicheonmu didn't they? I know for Chinese audiences, most of them are ok with the dubbing, since we're used to the Cantonese-to-Mandarin dubs. Also, Taiwan's dubbing is really, really good so I think a lot of people are OK with it.
kobe23 wrote:That is great to see collaborations between the big Asian countries and it has already happened with little success. Perhaps the language barrier is a problem as you said, but I don't think improving dubbing methods is the answer :)
Yeah, unfortunately the language barrier is the biggest obstacle.

I was thinking with how advanced computer technology is, perhaps they could pitch the dubbers voice so that it's similar to the real actors voice. And use some kind of computer modification to make the mouths match the language! kekeke... ok, not sure how sci-fi that is...:)

kobe23 wrote:I don't think it's as simple as just making better dramas. I think I'm not wrong in saying that most people regard the first k-drama they've seen as their favorite - Not necessarily because it's the best, but because of the initial excitement of the "first time" and the sentimental value thereafter.
Yeah, I can see that. Full House and Autumn Tale were also my first k-dramas and they will always have a special place in my heart, but the later ones like Coffee Prince and Soulmate were much better in my opinion. They felt more vibrant and like I mentioned above, the soundtrack, settings, and story pacing was much better.
kobe23 wrote:I don't ever see HK entertainment at the levels it was in the 80s and 90s again. These days everything coming out of Hong Kong cinema seems like something cooked up by EEG just to promote Twins and Edison Chen . Pre-scandal anyway :)
kekeke :) Yeah, the biggest problem in HK is the studio system. If I'm not mistaken, actors can only act in a certain studio's production right (or is that only in dramas)? That really limits the competition and talent.

I think HK is suffering through an identity crisis. Especially after Couching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, it seems like films are trying to pander to the Western audience for the "global" appeal. But by doing so, the films lose their connection with their local audience.
kobe23 wrote:Having a big budget helps a great deal when it comes to marketing, but I have found Hollywood, despite spending hundreds of millions more than Chungmuro, can still produce an vastly inferior product. Just look at their remakes of Asian films!
Oh yeah, I definitely agree.

I don't think having a bigger budget means a better film. I meant prominence in terms of marketing as well. I remember reading that in some cases, more money was spent on marketing than on the film itself!

The one thing about a non-American audience is that they are willing to read subtitles (and also most people learn English). So that's why Hollywood films are able to have that global reach.

(But that's a testament to Hollywood's marketing power, because you have a lot of quality European films that aren't imported to Asia or even other European countries).

It would be great if one day the general American audience is OK will reading subtitles, then Asian entertainment could really flourish.

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Post by belleza » Apr 7th, '08, 05:50

Like in Coffee Prince and Soulmate the music as just fantastic and really fit the scene
Yeah, that's actually considered a device in K-drama, the use of pop songs to represent a character or a specific couple. So if you hear a particular song, more often than not, it's the "theme" song for the people you see onscreen.

Soulmate's kinda special in that its pitchfork-ish playlist (LCD Soundsystem and Fantastic Plastic Machine?!? ) would be even challenging for a young hip Korean viewer. But it's part of a general move toward hipper, more sophisticated comedies to attract the 18-30 audience. The big deal with Coffee Prince is that it's the first of its kind to become a ratings hit.

In terms of set production and # of cameras and edits, Korean drama is higher than most China and Taiwanese dramas. The direction is still not as stylish as J-drama (inherent limitation with the live shoot, 2 episode/week setup), but the overall production budget (minus the actor salaries) is highest now in Asia.
They re-dubbed Bicheonmu didn't they? I know for Chinese audiences, most of them are ok with the dubbing, since we're used to the Cantonese-to-Mandarin dubs. Also, Taiwan's dubbing is really, really good so I think a lot of people are OK with it.
I think Bicheounmu did badly, mostly because it was aired in Korea well, well after China. I know about the quality/writings problems . . . but then, it's a SBS show, right? :D The people who really wanted to see Bicheounmu would have done so years before.
The one thing about a non-American audience is that they are willing to read subtitles (and also most people learn English). So that's why Hollywood films are able to have that global reach.
This is true, but almost all shows (as opposed to movies) are dubbed for the domestic market. Nobody likes to watch subtitles. I even watched Coffee Prince dubbed with Taiwanese voices. Eun Chan sounded ver uhh girly?!? :lol
I don't think having a bigger budget means a better film. I meant prominence in terms of marketing as well. I remember reading that in some cases, more money was spent on marketing than on the film itself!
It's not entirely fair to compare Hollywood budgets with other countries, because even when accounting for inflation, there's so much more bureaucracy that creeps into the Hollywood model. French movies, which like Korea has a quota system to protect local industry, are made for much, much less.

Also, in terms of quality product, again it's not fair to compare -- I don't know -- 10,000 BC to Sunshine or May 18th. That said, it should be noted that commercial Korean film likes to tackle social (i.e. nationalist) subjects and are able to make it commercially viable. That hasn't been the same with recent Hollywood. Also I think people associate Hollywood product with the summer crop, ignoring the winter prestige work. And of course there's also American independent too.

With regards to remakes, Hollywood doesn't have a good track record remaking films from any country, unless the studio actually views the port as a "prestige" project. I felt Ring was an improvement over Ringu (I like Gore Verbinski's David Fincher imitation), and that the Departed was slightly better than Infernal Affairs (the Departed script was a perfect ethno-evocation of the underbelly of Boston.) The latter may sound like heresy; but, then, how many people realize that most of the HK directors (including Wong Kar Wai) cite Martin Scorsese as their seminal influence? How many people who have watched Scorsese also watched the New Wave masters like Rohm and Godard and Bergmann?

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Post by kobe23 » Apr 7th, '08, 15:21

The American version of The Ring was great I have to admit. Hollywood is not known for making scary horror films (Exorcist still scariest after almost 40 years?!) and The Ring introduced a new style which western viewers were not accustomed to. Verbinski really managed to create the dark and brooding atmosphere that is staple in Asian horror and severely lacking from Hollywood. Enter Hideo Nakata for part 2 and he totally ruined it. I haven't seen the remake of The Eye as yet, but have read from various sources it could also be superior to the original. I can't imagine anyone coming close to the original A Tale of Two Sisters though.
how many people realize that most of the HK directors (including Wong Kar Wai) cite Martin Scorsese as their seminal influence?
I didn't know that, but it doesn't come as a surprise either. Martin Scorsese is probably the greatest director of all time, but this is the top of the Hollywood tree we are talking about. Go a little bit lower and the view isn't quite as good.

Now, if I have to concede which area America is stronger at, then I have to say it's the music industry. The reason why I like K-pop so much is because it's almost a replica of American pop. And that's an area where you always see Koreans imitating the Americans, but the good thing is, they do it quite well.

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Post by belleza » Apr 7th, '08, 20:48

I didn't know that, but it doesn't come as a surprise either. Martin Scorsese is probably the greatest director of all time, but this is the top of the Hollywood tree we are talking about. Go a little bit lower and the view isn't quite as good.
I think it depends on the view. The view is great if you watch serious Hollywood films or independent work (Paul Thomas Anderson is one of my favorite filmmakers.) The view is bad if you look strictly at box office. It's like me comparing all Korean films to D-Wars or The Host, or all Japanese films as horror flicks starring children with long hair. Or all K-dramas to Stairway to Heaven.

That's partially why I kinda roll my eyes about the backlash over Asian remakes, as if remakes were itself not common (or necessarily bad) all over the world. When Korea remakes a Japanese show or film (or vice versa) or an American TV show, you don't hear the same mock disapproval. Somehow because it's "Asian" it makes all the copycat and derivative products more or less "okay." The first Korean film I watched was "My Girl and I", the SHK remake of Sekachu, which is one of my all-time favorite romantic movies any country. My reaction was of the "what . . the . . .hell . . " variety! :D (Seriously SHK, you gotta tell your company to stop putting you in remakes mmm kay? :D )

What I like about the Korean film industry, though, is that mainstream popular films can be social films too and take on some of the elements of art-house fare. So something like "May 18th" can be a hit, even though it covers one of the darkest events in South Korean history. Something like "King and the Clown" can be an all-time hit, let alone one of their massive hits. Even though it's going through a downcycle, it's still robust and an important (and separate from TV) part of their pop culture.
Now, if I have to concede which area America is stronger at, then I have to say it's the music industry.
I mean, it depends. The top end of K-pop is maybe the best most popular product in Asia right now, but Japanese pop music sells better overall because they've exposed more of the rest of their music. (Rock travels better across international lines -- it's easier to market Gackt to the West than it is Hikki.) How many people listen to Jaurim (GREAT GREAT GREAT band), Roller Coaster, Nell, or Drunken Tiger? (Seriously, when I expose people to stuff like Rumble Fish, they're shocked that Korea actually offers music like that.) How much exposure do we have to the Hondae scene compared to Shibuya? If I hear another guy who loves the Wonder Girls or the Girls Generation . . .

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Post by alcozar » Apr 7th, '08, 21:20

I think its still good, innovative dramas like Soulmate, Whats Up Fox and recently Hyena more than make up for the standard dramss which copy each other (still usually pretty good).

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Post by belleza » Apr 8th, '08, 00:14

I think its still good, innovative dramas like Soulmate, Whats Up Fox and recently Hyena more than make up for the standard dramas which copy each other (still usually pretty good).
I felt that 2006-2007 were transitional seasons for the major networks. Melodramas were no longer profitable, and rom coms were having problems consistently reaching an audience. Basically the last 2 years, we've seen all the stations start thinking outside the box with their programming, and for the most part, and many of the shows that have been coming out have been breaking outside the common stereotypes of K-drama.

It seems like that 2008 is the year that we're seeing the results of Hallyu's adolescent period.

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Post by hateytb » Apr 8th, '08, 01:26

hehe! i dont know if korean wave is waning or not..but i'm pretty sure it's waning for me...


maybe i'm just bored easily..but then again, i'm still enjoying chinese dramas..even though it was the first things that i watch a long way before i'm into K - dramas...


but..i think J - dramas is still the best for me..it short and it really weird sometime...which fit me! LOL!

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Post by kobe23 » Apr 9th, '08, 13:00

belleza wrote: That's partially why I kinda roll my eyes about the backlash over Asian remakes, as if remakes were itself not common (or necessarily bad) all over the world. When Korea remakes a Japanese show or film (or vice versa) or an American TV show, you don't hear the same mock disapproval. Somehow because it's "Asian" it makes all the copycat and derivative products more or less "okay."
The backlash over Asian remakes is not so much because of the act of remaking Asian films, but the way they do it.

- First and foremost, a lot of the American audience who watch Asian remakes are usually not even aware they're remakes in the first place. Credit is rarely given to the original creators which leaves the viewers thinking Hollywood is the source of all that creativity!

- Asian remakes are typically "dumbed down" to be more palatable to the American audience.

- Storylines are usually altered in a way which totally ruins the magic of the original.

I for one, cannot wait for the spate of Asian films (especially Korean) to be remade by Hollywood. It will be interesting to see how My Sassy Girl, A Tale of Two Sisters, Oldboy etc will turn out.

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Post by belleza » Apr 9th, '08, 17:42

Yeah, but that itself is consistent with the majority of Hollywood remakes. Rarely does the remake approach the original, because very rarely would the director (or the producers behind it) consider a remake anything more than a paying job. Wings of Desire becoming City of Angels (which I liked.) Le Femme Nikita remade into Point of No Return. Abre Los Ojos remade into Vanilla Sky. It's not just Hollywood; Chungmuro had done many remakes as well with varying level of success. I understand why they remade Sekachu (megahit weepie in Japan), but they turned it into a happy go-lucky travelogue?!? Bleh!!!
I for one, cannot wait for the spate of Asian films (especially Korean) to be remade by Hollywood. It will be interesting to see how My Sassy Girl, A Tale of Two Sisters, Oldboy etc will turn out.
I feel pretty strongly about the remake of Ima Ai ni Yukimasu / Be With You; the original film was a popular Japanese weepie, and the original novel is just perfect for another movie adaptation.

I'm not sure how I feel about My Sassy Girl. The cast isn't appetizing, and Hollywood rom-coms aren't good at high concept whimsy. BUT they hired Yann Samuel to direct this piece, who did Jeux d'enfants (staring actress winner Marion Cotillard of En Vie en Rose.) And that film ain't nothing but whimsical! Actually, Marion would make a perfect sassy girl . . .

Oldboy and Sympathy for a Lady Vengeance are interesting problems, because those are considered auteur. It's one thing to remake a popular movie like My Sassy Girl or Il Mare; it's another to remake a runner up to the Palm D'or. It would be like Korea remaking Pulp Fiction. Or Germany remaking Ichi the Killer.

Remake of Tale of Two Sisters will be straight up terrible. But really blonde! :lol

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Post by kobe23 » Apr 23rd, '08, 14:39

Tom Larsen president of YA Entertainment made an interesting point in an interview by The Korea Herald:

"I know, of course, that Korean TV dramas are made for Korean audiences. However, I believe that sometime soon, if not already, total Korean TV-drama viewership will be greater outside of Korea. The number of non-Korean viewers will be greater than the number of Korean viewers. This is an amazing point to ponder, and the implications for Korean TV drama producers and writers are enormous. As Korean TV dramas continue to increase in popularity, it would be wonderful for the U.S. fans to be able to interact more with the actors and actresses. (press conferences, academic symposiums, concerts, conventions, etc)."

That really is an amazing point to ponder over and it would be fascinating to see what Korean dramas would be like if/when they are targeted towards the non-Korean audience.

He also commented about the position of Korean dramas in the US market:

"When compared to Chinese and Japanese TV programming, I believe Korean TV dramas are by far the most popular among mainstream Americans. Even in the Chinese-American community, Chinese-language TV stations will air Korean TV dramas dubbed in Mandarin or Cantonese. Korean TV dramas are perceived as higher quality and more entertaining than Chinese TV programming and definitely more accessible than Japanese TV programming."

Yeah I guess he's biased since he's the president of YAE which distributes Korean dramas, but in the interview he did mention several weaknesses of k-dramas such as "Chance meetings", slow pacing, too many 'flashback scenes' etc.

The entire interview is pretty interesting but somewhat lengthy. It's over at the soompi news thread if you have some time to kill :)

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Post by garnet07 » Jul 8th, '08, 20:18

groink wrote: So YES, you are correct in that I'm insinuating that Hallyu fans are in fact mindless drones who follow everything Korean. THAT'S the entire foundation of the Hallyu!
--- groink
This is a little too much of a comment from groink. It's so biased. Well whatever you say that's your opinion.

I would say Korean or other country's wave, well comes in waves. One season they're popular = crests and another season they die down = troughs which all depends on the show.

I still watch a mixture of Korean, Jdramas and Chinese dramas to this day. I think there's still many who do not know anything, but American shows. So sad for them for being brainwashed and mind melt by American shows. If you talk about cliche, American Reality Shows got tiring. And all hip hop, alternative (well used to be good) songs, but all now sound the same to me.

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Post by watermelonghost » Jun 1st, '09, 02:49

groink wrote:
Hanjae wrote:I think, rather than the Korean Wave waning, it's just the initial hype that's waning.
You're exactly correct. I don't think many of you remember what I'm about to bring up... Throughout much of the 1970s, Japan enjoyed their own Japanese wave of sorts. They didn't actually call it a "wave", but much of what you see with the Korean wave today occurred back then for the Japanese - and WITHOUT help from the Internet. The Japanese geinokai was paying visits around the world putting on concerts and appearing in movies. The Japanese junk food craze started during that time, with Cup Noodle being the biggest hit of them all. Groups like The Candies and Pink Lady entered American entertainment; Pink Lady even had their own TV variety show on NBC.

And, just like things Korean today, things Japanese didn't actually disappear. Rather, they stabilized and would eventually dip down just slight. But you still may scars of the Japanese 1970s, such as sentai tokusatsu shows like Power Ranger, karaoke and anime. American TV stations are showing more Japanese shows than they ever did. And, Japanese pop music is still big - probably bigger right now than any other Eastern Asian pop market. And let's remember symbolic trademarks like Hello Kitty and Glico.

The exact same thing is going to happen to the Korean wave. Everyone who would eventually feel the effect have already done so, so not too many more people are being introduced to things Korean as much as they did just one year ago. And in a few years, something else will come along... Maybe a Hong Kong wave or even a Malaysian wave. Think about it - if the Korean Wave were to last forever, it wouldn't even be called a wave but rather a permanent rise of the ocean level (and they'd probably blame that on global warming.)

--- groink
i dont know... about that.... the korean wave is extremely unique and fascinating, you havent heard? even america is starting to notice the korean wave, and guess what? last year 13% of korea's marriages consisted of foreignors all over asia and some European countries...

surely japan didnt need of internet to promote their products, maybe its due to their incredible budgets... i mean japan is the 2nd most richest country in the world, so you really dont need commercial promotes if there is alot of investments.....
korea gotten demands for their media, originally with lower budgets......
like REALLY REALLY low... look at the movies now compared to 10 years ago, BIG BLOODY DIFFERENCE,... korea is progressing fast....

surely, china's media dominated during the 60s~90s where martial artists rose up,,,
then during 90s to beginning of 21st century, it was kind of japan, where their animes promoted alot of their cultural interests.... those are still live and kicking...
but i dont think korea's media will ever go down either, why?
cause of their investments.... their profits are going waaaay up..
look at korea's GDP progress, .... korea is like twice as rich as itself every 15 years.....
so bigger the overall GDP, bigger the investment for korea's budgets for the media...
like the movies i see nowadays are more lively and has higher CGs....
i mean originally korea was broke considering the attack by japan during the early 1900s
i mean look at japan trying counter effecting korea's success by creating the "hating the korean wave"..... look it up in google.....
thats not cool, wish japan would just leave korea alone....


lastly,.... if korea's success was just a fluke or waning, then korean stars wouldnt be acting in the american movies right now...
ive seen chinese, korean, or even taiwanese, but never japanese....
i never seen any japanese actors in america except "war", "last samurai" and "fat and the furious 3"
thats pretty much it..... and almost most japanese characters are played by korean people... like samurai girl, dragonball evolution, wolverine origin, speed racer, gi joe, and etc...
Last edited by watermelonghost on Jun 1st, '09, 03:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by |ZERO| » Jun 1st, '09, 03:23

The Korean wave has been waning for a quite a while now and I don't think it really caught on in Japan and Taiwan besides with middle-aged women. I think the reason why people are getting bored with Korean entertainment is because they are sick of seeing so much cosmetic surgery and actors and actresses with similar looking feature because of it.

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Post by groink » Jun 1st, '09, 03:40

|ZERO| wrote:The Korean wave has been waning for a quite a while now and I don't think it really caught on in Japan and Taiwan besides with middle-aged women. I think the reason why people are getting bored with Korean entertainment is because they are sick of seeing so much cosmetic surgery and actors and actresses with similar looking feature because of it.
Although I agree with you, the cosmetic surgery comment just triggered a flood by watermelonghost - simply a Korean who's trying to iron out all the myths of his people and culture. The minute I read him say he hardly sees any Japanese in entertainment, that's when he lost all credibility.

My bold statement: when the day comes where things Asian surpass the latinos and blacks, THEN I'll stand up and applaud the effort. In the meantime, expecting all Americans to watch and listen to slant-eyed people - in a country where the only Koreans most Americans know are Margaret Cho and the extras in M*A*S*H, is far FAR too optimistic. Abandon the stereotypes and racial views of Asians in the West first, and THEN look into the future. In the mean time, many Americans have a negative view of Koreans - with the North Korean nuclear issues, as Americans don't know the difference between South and North Koreans. To them, they're just orientals.

--- groink

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Post by watermelonghost » Jun 1st, '09, 03:46

|ZERO| wrote:The Korean wave has been waning for a quite a while now and I don't think it really caught on in Japan and Taiwan besides with middle-aged women. I think the reason why people are getting bored with Korean entertainment is because they are sick of seeing so much cosmetic surgery and actors and actresses with similar looking feature because of it.
hmm...
not really...
peope like bae yung joon, ee byung won, lee jun ki, kwon sang woo,
their all natural.....

america and japan has at least 5 times the rate of koreans with cosmetic surgeries.....
look it up in google, its your best friend.....

so please dont poke around korea, cause u dont seem to know a single thing about them...

for youre information, most of the promotes comes from chinese, phillipino, vietnamese, and taiwanese girls at the age of 14~25 that are within the korean wave,,,
im not trying to brag about korea,,, but im just saying the fans doesnt come from middle-aged women, but yet from teenagers in asian.....
stroll around youtube, and you'll get the idea.....
so maybe you dont seem to be the one that doesnt know anything once again....

maybe ur just bitter with korea?
making up these lies will only make ur opinion more degrading....

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Post by |ZERO| » Jun 1st, '09, 04:10

All those people you mentioned have probably had 4 or 5 surgeries starting since before high school. Many Koreans deny it and I think their surgeries are very gradually done and very well done but if you don't know when to stop then you will wind up looking like everyone else. I also wonder if all the star go to the same one or two specialists since that would explain a lot.

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Post by Puppet Princess » Jun 1st, '09, 04:27

|ZERO| wrote:All those people you mentioned have probably had 4 or 5 surgeries starting since before high school. Many Koreans deny it and I think their surgeries are very gradually done and very well done but if you don't know when to stop then you will wind up looking like everyone else. I also wonder if all the star go to the same one or two specialists since that would explain a lot.
Speculation and slander. Nice. Got proof? Of course not.

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Post by |ZERO| » Jun 1st, '09, 04:34

No need for proof since I am not running a tabloid magazine. Nor am I slandering since I think they look hot. It's just what it looks like to me and others who think so too.

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Post by Puppet Princess » Jun 1st, '09, 05:24

Exactly as I said. You wont prove it because you are just trying to pass you opinion off as fact. So your logic says, if you see a person who is very pretty you think they have had plastic surgery. And because you think it's true it must be true. Anyone who says they know they are natural, are wrong, because you are right.

The fact is, while Bae Yong Jun and the likes are the "fathers" of the Korean Wave, there is nothing saying they have to keep it going (even though Bae Yong Jun is still uber popular in Japan and does promotions of Korea and Korean products rather than acting.). Bae Yong Jun was the hot item for the middle aged women and still is. Hell, I've seen Taiwanese shows produced in the last 6 months mention him when comparing good looking men.

But, then you have people like DBSK who spend more time in Japan producing albums than in Korea, because their Japanese fan-base allows them to make crap loads of money off the Japanese. And I'm sure you're right. It must be the old housewives standing in line to see DBSK, holding signs covered in glitter that say 재중아 사랑해요!!!, and screaming until they loose their voices.

Tae Goon, SS501, Super Junior, FT Island all hold promotional events and concerts in Japan, Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore, and Hawaii because they just like working. Not because they have fans there and it's profitable to do so. Of course you are right. People are obviously bored with Koreans.
Last edited by Puppet Princess on Jun 1st, '09, 05:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by |ZERO| » Jun 1st, '09, 05:48

LOLLLLLLLLLLLL

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Post by sungie » Jun 1st, '09, 06:44

Puppet Princess wrote:It must be the old housewives standing in line to see DBSK, holding signs covered in glitter that say 재중아 사랑해요!!!, and screaming until they loose their voices.
lol
I will pay if I can see my mother doing that XD

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Post by Puppet Princess » Jun 1st, '09, 07:07

sungie wrote:
Puppet Princess wrote:It must be the old housewives standing in line to see DBSK, holding signs covered in glitter that say 재중아 사랑해요!!!, and screaming until they loose their voices.
lol
I will pay if I can see my mother doing that XD
lol I'd have a hard time putting a price on a sight that awesome. :lol

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Post by 143art » Jun 1st, '09, 07:19

joykimlee wrote:Was totally into kdramas since 2001. But since 2006, i ditched kdramas for jdramas. Kdramas have outdone their melancholy romantic plots. Jdramas on the other hand have much more interesting plots condensed into 10 eps. Nevertheless i still enjoy Korean food n fashion.

ditto....i think the most recent one I enjoy through beginning to end is Dal ja spring lol and that was how long ago? since then, i ditch it kdrama for jdrama for the exact reason

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Post by watermelonghost » Jun 2nd, '09, 03:14

groink wrote:I didn't think electronics was a part of the Korean wave. I still don't think it is. Again, you're labeling by association. If everyone at Samsung or LG were Korean nationalists, then that's one thing. But from my sources, there are many engineers there that originate from places like the Phillipines, India, Japan, America... Rain is a product of Korea and the wave. Don't assume that corporations are. Same goes with Sony. Same with Microsoft. Same with ANY corporation in this world. If there's any one company that is a part of any wave, that would be Apple Inc. And the things I hear coming out of those Apple fanboys are no different than this Korean wave movement.

My whole point here is quite simple: People like yourself think that just by association things Korean are not only going to get better, but that other cultures, traditions and entertainment industries are going to be pushed aside because of it. THAT'S what I mean by people pushing the movement as being elitists. BoA, the TV dramas, and any other forms of art coming out of Korea compete against others based on their QUALITY. The whole wave movement is based on a bunch of people who, for example, watch a TV drama and then start eating the food because of the TV drama. This train of thought is so much near that of sheep. So YES, you are correct in that I'm insinuating that Hallyu fans are in fact mindless drones who follow everything Korean. THAT'S the entire foundation of the Hallyu!

Based on logic alone, if something else in this world comes along that's just as addicting as things Korean, those Korean things will be pushed aside - along with things Japanese and American. So that would blow your theory. But you believe that things Korean are going to keep increasing in quality and popularity regardless of what might happen in the future. Elitism and ethnocentrism - big time!

--- groink

thats funny...
see, in that sense, japan are hypocrits....
japans been being ethnocentrism since 50 years ago....
using their money to aid in massive women from other countries....
they use anime/manga to promote their culture as well.... you see people dressed up as samurais, carrying around japanese products, and try to learn japanese...
what do they have anything to do with animes?
see what i mean?

FOR YOURE INFORMATION, japanese wave has been acknowledged.... millions and millions of people visited japan, out of curiosity and interest in their culture....
and japan didnt have a problem with that did they?

of course when japan displays themselves to be great, they dont notice it.....
but when they see like america, china, korea, or any other countries, then they start making backlashes like "anti-americanism" or "hating the korean wave"....
japan uses the most underhanded methods to degrade their rivals..... especially korea... they have been bullying them for many centuries..
look how ugly they draw americas, black ppl, chinese, koreans, hispanics,,,,, and yet japanese people are drawn to have HUGE EYES, beautiful bods, and etc.....

since u seem like an intelligent man....
go to google, and type in "hating the korean wave"...
and see where that originates from......

koreans have the right to stand up for themselves....
japan is now on the outraged side due to its losing end of rivalry.....
so we have people like you degrading koreans in like hundreds of forums in hundreds of different sites expressing their hates and pointing out their negative sides , hoping people would see that.....
did koreans do this to japan? NO.... when anime, manga, tv shows, etc... were promoting... korea was merely a customer.....

i say youre just jealous , and SCARED korea is going UP, and you guys are going DOWN

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Post by groink » Jun 2nd, '09, 03:55

watermelonghost wrote:i say youre just jealous , and SCARED korea is going UP, and you guys are going DOWN
Quick question... Why are you even on D-Addicts?

You're digging up comments from the grave made over one year ago. You keep bringing up Google - which BTW is an American product. You think Google is to be used by the likes of you to very obviously do a all-out search on the Internet for any kind of negative comments regarding your country. Is school over for the summer in Korea by chance? Is this the way you're going to spend your summer vacation? You're going to go back to school in the Fall, and they're going to ask you, "So, watermelonghost, what did you do during your summer vacation?" And you're going to tell them, "Man, I used Google I learned to use the other day, to find every post I could find speaking negatively of my beloved country - regardless of how old the posts they were. Even if the topic is dead, I woke the topic up, and then I totally bashed them - I really gave them a piece of my mind - bringing up thousands of years of getting **** on by the Japanese, the Chinese, and everyone else." Now, it may give you a clear conscience and all, but this is NOT the way to go about fixing the problem. As a matter of fact, it gives people like myself an even MORE negative light of your causes. Until you and your sockpuppet came onboard here a few days ago, there was absolutely no chat about Koreans vs the world. It is the two of you who dug this stuff up from the grave.

You're probably the highlight of any party...

And FYI, I am NOT Japanese. I am an American - a Filipino American at that. My ancestors were **** own by the Japanese for many years. But, unlike your parents who are feeding you all this propaganda, us Filipinos are of a proud people, and basically go on with our lives. We don't vent in public events about the atrocities done by the Japanese. No, we go about our lives, living all over the world and continue to gain respect by the communities we live in. While you have Koreans living in the U.S. bitching and moaning about some fricking fishing island none of us Americans even know about!

We just don't understand exactly what you people want - either from the Japanese or from anyone else.

--- groink
Last edited by groink on Jun 2nd, '09, 04:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by deathangel » Jun 2nd, '09, 04:09

first, why is this start to lean more & more to become a political issue?, which is so wrong here.

anyway, here my opinion. To me the Korean wave like any other wave, regardless from which part of the world they are from, come and goes. And this is what happen to the Korean product s now. In the end , it simply becomes generic as everything else, and thus a normal thing later.

As for why the Korean dramas start losing it once high viewership among dramas lovers is because it becomes more & more repeative in their story line. Ideas are good when it is fresh, but constantly using the same old ideas is bad. Furthermore, they are overconfident that they can sell their product regardless the quality of the show because of all the Korean hype but boy, how wrong are they.They tend to forget about that viewers have the choice to choose quality show and they can make that choice to abandon any show if they deem bad.Not that i say Korean shows are all bad, just that they need some new ideas and creativity in their storyline, for much of their show is like a remake of each other.If they can rectify that problems, i am sure that they can re-up the popularity of Korean shows like they use to be and compete again with others, especially with Japanese shows.

[qoute]since u seem like an intelligent man....
go to google, and type in "hating the korean wave"...
and see where that originates from......

koreans have the right to stand up for themselves....
japan is now on the outraged side due to its losing end of rivalry.....
so we have people like you degrading koreans in like hundreds of forums in hundreds of different sites expressing their hates and pointing out their negative sides , hoping people would see that.....
did koreans do this to japan? NO.... when anime, manga, tv shows, etc... were promoting... korea was merely a customer.....

i say youre just jealous , and SCARED korea is going UP, and you guys are going DOWN[/qoute]

watermelonghost, to think you can say this out show how immature your thinking are. Those who doesnt agree which you are NOT jealous and scared about Korea going up or Japan going down.they are merely stating their opinion.And with the statement you wrote, it seems like you are like overprotecting yourself of what you like, etc and it DOES sound like a political issue just by redaing your post. there no doubt that no one is questioning anything about Korean standing up for themselves but saying bad about other countries especially pointing the finger to Japan herself make you no much better that those forumers you say are hating or saying negatively about Korean products.
Get it straight, every countries peoples love their own culture and are proud of it.There no point and its rude to discredit other culture, just simply because you are frm XXX and he is frm ZZZ. And about promoting ones product, its an economic and business strategy by all SIDES, and all are providers and customers at the same time.there no need to whine about it. Study & read more about the world(not just visiting forum that hurl insult at others, mind you)before stating others as ignorant when you yourself are by bashing others. No offend to you though cause this is merely an advice to you to be more open minded to others view.

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Post by watermelonghost » Jun 3rd, '09, 01:19

groink wrote:
watermelonghost wrote:i say youre just jealous , and SCARED korea is going UP, and you guys are going DOWN
Quick question... Why are you even on D-Addicts?

You're digging up comments from the grave made over one year ago. You keep bringing up Google - which BTW is an American product. You think Google is to be used by the likes of you to very obviously do a all-out search on the Internet for any kind of negative comments regarding your country. Is school over for the summer in Korea by chance? Is this the way you're going to spend your summer vacation? You're going to go back to school in the Fall, and they're going to ask you, "So, watermelonghost, what did you do during your summer vacation?" And you're going to tell them, "Man, I used Google I learned to use the other day, to find every post I could find speaking negatively of my beloved country - regardless of how old the posts they were. Even if the topic is dead, I woke the topic up, and then I totally bashed them - I really gave them a piece of my mind - bringing up thousands of years of getting **** on by the Japanese, the Chinese, and everyone else." Now, it may give you a clear conscience and all, but this is NOT the way to go about fixing the problem. As a matter of fact, it gives people like myself an even MORE negative light of your causes. Until you and your sockpuppet came onboard here a few days ago, there was absolutely no chat about Koreans vs the world. It is the two of you who dug this stuff up from the grave.

You're probably the highlight of any party...

And FYI, I am NOT Japanese. I am an American - a Filipino American at that. My ancestors were **** own by the Japanese for many years. But, unlike your parents who are feeding you all this propaganda, us Filipinos are of a proud people, and basically go on with our lives. We don't vent in public events about the atrocities done by the Japanese. No, we go about our lives, living all over the world and continue to gain respect by the communities we live in. While you have Koreans living in the U.S. bitching and moaning about some fricking fishing island none of us Americans even know about!

We just don't understand exactly what you people want - either from the Japanese or from anyone else.

--- groink
i understand everything now...
youre country invented google... i mean ****, what does that have anything to do with anything... typical rants...
summer hasnt started 4 you, but these posts magically appear out of nowhere ...
why do you care what koreans say about other people... i didnt even say anything bad about filipinos... i dont even have anything against filipinos

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Post by groink » Jun 3rd, '09, 01:26

watermelonghost wrote:i understand everything now...
youre country invented google... i mean ****, what does that have anything to do with anything... typical rants...
summer hasnt started 4 you, but these posts magically appear out of nowhere ...
why do you scare what koreans say about other people... i didnt even say anything bad about filipinos... i dont even have anything against filipinos
Dude, take some English classes. You cannot even read or write English. You are not correctly reading the context of these posts. I never once insulted the Koerans. I insult the wave movement - that is NOT insulting the Koreans. I also insult the people who fall for the movement - again, I'm not insulting the Koreans. But, your reading comprehension and too much caffeinated coffee isn't allowing you to comprehend any of this. I don't like arguing with people who can't communicate or comprehend others' writings correctly. Trust me on this - NO ONE on D-Addicts will take you seriously. You speak in an irate, non-logical tone.

--- groink

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Post by kuro570 » Jun 3rd, '09, 01:54

Man watermelonghost I take you really hate the Japanese huh?
I'm sorry but I frankly really don't care about the politics behind Korea, and Japan especially about arguing about cultural differences and such. If I wanted to hear some angry Koreans rant about their raped culture I would talk to my friends and let them **** at me at how I shouldn't be studying Japanese but Korean.
Seriously get over it, you don't still see the Chinese, and U.S. still complaining about WWII or Pearl Harbor..

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umm seriously...

Post by frankie38 » Jun 3rd, '09, 02:06

why cant we all just get along....lol.

let me give you a hug watermelon boy(in a non homosexual way)....

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Post by cool_drama » Jun 3rd, '09, 02:45

@groink

What is wrong with following the culture and entertainment rich Korean Wave?

The majority of people follow the wave because they like the stuff that they see coming out of Korea. What is wrong with wanting to explore more about a culture after watching and liking a movie? There are those out of the ordinary hardcore fans who follow the Korean Wave mindlessly, but those people exist for every other movements, celebrities or whatever. No need to assume that everyone is like that. Korea did vastly improve in their entertainment and that is why people around the world came to like their music, movies and dramas. It is your opinion that you don't like the Korean wave movement, no need to insult the Korean people and the fans of the Korean Wave because of that...and yes, you did insult Koreans in your earlier posts.

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Post by groink » Jun 3rd, '09, 02:52

cool_drama wrote:and yes, you did insult Koreans in your earlier posts.
*sigh* Okay, show me the quote that has people interpreting as an insult towards Koreans. First of all, the Korean wave is a wave OUTSIDE OF KOREA! When I insult the wave, how can I be insulting Koreans when it isn't the Koreans who are responsible for the wave? The wave is created by fans of the culture, and not pre-fabricated by the entertainment industry.

Also, the people who follow the Korean wave consists not only of Koreans, but also every other race known to man. When I insult the followers, I'm insulting them as a group, and NOT as a race. C'mon, people! I can't believe I have to explain this stuff.

I fully explained myself in earlier posts. I don't feel I have to add supporting information to what my beliefs are.

--- groink

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Post by watermelonghost » Jun 3rd, '09, 02:55

cool_drama wrote:@groink

What is wrong with following the culture and entertainment rich Korean Wave?

The majority of people follow the wave because they like the stuff that they see coming out of Korea. What is wrong with wanting to explore more about a culture after watching and liking a movie? There are those out of the ordinary hardcore fans who follow the Korean Wave mindlessly, but those people exist for every other movements, celebrities or whatever. No need to assume that everyone is like that. Korea did vastly improve in their entertainment and that is why people around the world came to like their music, movies and dramas. It is your opinion that you don't like the Korean wave movement, no need to insult the Korean people and the fans of the Korean Wave because of that...and yes, you did insult Koreans in your earlier posts.
thank you...
this groink guy claims he's mature, but hes been insulting koreans in every forum i go in this site.... i mean give these people a break, and let them enjoy what they want to enjoy...
america has a cult as well... like the hippie age, emo, gothic, metros, etc...
and nobody made fun of them, though american made fun of their own people....

secondly, there were mindless fans of animes/mangas... people who worshipped shows like naruto, dragonball, and other animes... japanese people had no problem with this , up until other nations started to spice up their media... and they make anti-waves like "hating the korean wave".... my friend, groink,,, thats not happening in the past,, its happening now..... unless u cant read english, like the one i wrote before, i dont blame u...

i mean why do you care what other people choose to do ?
korean wave is something korea isnt boasting about, its something their proud about, considering we weren't known for the past 100 years... so obviously we have something to represent, and be proud about...
japan has things they are proud about too... anime, manga, cars, game consoles, j-pop, live-action movies, etc........... would u make fun of foreignors who are into these things? i guess not, since , those things are positive aspects depicting ur nation...
u only seem to see faults of other nations...

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Post by watermelonghost » Jun 3rd, '09, 03:00

kuro570 wrote:Man watermelonghost I take you really hate the Japanese huh?
I'm sorry but I frankly really don't care about the politics behind Korea, and Japan especially about arguing about cultural differences and such. If I wanted to hear some angry Koreans rant about their raped culture I would talk to my friends and let them **** at me at how I shouldn't be studying Japanese but Korean.
Seriously get over it, you don't still see the Chinese, and U.S. still complaining about WWII or Pearl Harbor..
kuro, im not angry about ww2...
im angry how alot of these annoying anti-korean japanese cults are rising, due to our success over the past decades.... japans been degrading us since 100 years ago, and up until now, and will continue degrading us... look at how many hate speeches ull find in yahoo answers...
of course japanese people dont see their own faults, do they?

this is not about the past...
this is happening right now...
and about the ww2 incident, we are still angry along with china, because japan TODAY lies in their textbooks about how what they did during ww2 was heroic, and denying all the **** they did to other asian nations.....
you expect korea and china to forget about it when thats happening TODAY?
we didnt say anything about that, up until 5 years ago, we found out about the japanese school education with their history books.....

so on the contrary, its all about today...
so dont feed me youre lies and biased opinions on me....

dont take this personally, i started off loving japan...
i actually liked their culture, and some of their art works, and traditions.....
up until recently they made the "hating the korean wave" (manga kenkanryu)...
that was just uncalled for.....
but i bet you dont know anything about that do yah? so you ganna look it up to find some loopholes to countermeasure on me on this....

japan does this all the time....
when america's media went ZOOOOOOM and american man started to take japanese women with their sex appeals, they made americans a bunch of "yankees" in their media especially anime, and made them look like tyrants who attacks so-called innocent japanese for no reason....
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... n%26um%3D1

and now koreans media going up,,, they do THIS to korea now....
view the picture on the top left...

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... X%26um%3D1

i dont blame u for trying to argue back at this, and say, this was also for justice and for the good of whatever you guys randomly place in a justified word

tsk tsk.. i can never understand how japanese people think....
Last edited by watermelonghost on Jun 3rd, '09, 03:28, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by cool_drama » Jun 3rd, '09, 03:11

"That's basically how I see the Koreans - just a nation filled with "Look at me! Look at me!" folks. I mean, why can't they be like many other nations and just enjoy the fact that they're big in their own country? Fricking bunch of posers if you ask me! "

That doesn't sound like you're only insulting the fan made wave.

Your explanations in the earlier posts don't justify why the followers have to be insulted. I see the explanations as your personal emotions and interpretations of something you don't like.

I fully understand that you want to insult a group and not a particular ethnicity because I did mention the followers being from around the world, so you don't have to feel like you have to be repetitive.

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Post by watermelonghost » Jun 3rd, '09, 03:19

"That's basically how I see the Koreans - just a nation filled with "Look at me! Look at me!" folks. I mean, why can't they be like many other nations and just enjoy the fact that they're big in their own country? Fricking bunch of posers if you ask me! "
nope... america is the one with alot of posers...
japan too, u see alot of girls dressed all goth, nurse costume...
japanese guys driving their skylines , working under sony, etc...

so its wrong if korean guys try to make themselves look the best??

on the contrary... so what do you WANT the korean guys to do?
dress like hobos to avoid looking like a boastful guy?
is that what you want??

i 100%ly doubt you would be saying the same thing if it was youre country getting the attention.... would you be ranting the same thing , ur ranting now?
like "my country is filled with people that goes "look at me, look at me" " ...
something like that?

im a korean guy... and i dont think korean ppl are what they are in the media either....
i think every country is equal... and we are just proud of our success.....
so you expect to see koreans becoming more confident and being proud of themselves...
if not, what do you THINK the koreans should be doing about that?
Last edited by watermelonghost on Jun 3rd, '09, 04:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by cool_drama » Jun 3rd, '09, 03:34

@watermelonghost

I was replying to groink with his quotation, not you.


By the way...

You shouldn't be bringing up old stuff because everyone fu**ks everyone over in the past. If you look at history...we're just a messed up race. We are humans after all. I guess we like to mess up other people, and it is still ongoing today.

We can't change the past and the past was not us, so you should let it rest for now.

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Post by watermelonghost » Jun 3rd, '09, 03:47

cool_drama wrote:@watermelonghost

I was replying to groink with his quotation, not you.


By the way...

You shouldn't be bringing up old stuff because everyone fu**ks everyone over in the past. If you look at history...we're just a messed up race. We are humans after all. I guess we like to mess up other people, and it is still ongoing today.

We can't change the past and the past was not us, so you should let it rest for now.
im sorry... i guess i went abit too far on my debate...
ill stop now... so can the japanese guys like kuro and groink stop with the insults with the korean wave ,, like RIGHT ABOUT NOW ? if they dont mind?

let it rest... ok?
since u guys started it, from page 1 of this thread...
i was only standing up for my people... which i have the right to do....

but i appreciate your comments...
i dont hate all japanese people... i only hate the ones that rant on us...
if they didnt do that, i would still love japan today...

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Post by groink » Jun 3rd, '09, 04:06

groink wrote:"That's basically how I see the Koreans - just a nation filled with "Look at me! Look at me!" folks. I mean, why can't they be like many other nations and just enjoy the fact that they're big in their own country? Fricking bunch of posers if you ask me!
Okay, that's fair. I did indeed say that. And I do stand behind the idea. I keep seeing the likes of Bi and other artists who are go way overboard in trying to get themselves recognized by the world. Whenever I see arguments on boards such as Wikipedia, trying to compare Bi's "importance" to society to that of John Lennon, Elton John, Michael Jackson, Bob Geldof, Bono.... There are NO Korean artists that have achieved the status of being as important as the names I rattled off. That's why I call people like Bi "posers" - trying to pretend that in less than eight years, they've become this big huge image just because of some poll in Time Magazine. These Korean artists have a LOT more work cut out for them if they want to achieve international notoriety beyond their crafts.

I justify insulting the wave followers under the same ideology as Apple fanboys, left/right wingers in politics, or BMW owners. They're zealots! All of them! I don't like zealots. I think the world can live on without them. My friend's mother is one of these wave zealots... She watched a Korean drama, and next she's traveling to Korea, eating Korean food every night, attending K-drama clubs... And finally, she's starts trashing Japanese dramas that her own flesh-and-blood son loves. She's a zealot, and I told her that.

Anytime a zealot becomes defensive, their arguments go way beyond the scope of the argument. It becomes personal. That's why I don't like them! You cannot argue logically with them. A close friend of mine even wrote about Apple fans and how they basically evangelize the movement. I've witnessed the Apple movement since the early 1980s. I see the Korean wave becoming virtually identical in practice. And again, I think these zealots should just enjoy what they like, and not attempt to push their ideology onto others.

And last, the reason why I think the wave is unjustified is because, as an American, I don't like the idea of flooding America with entertainment, but have nothing to show of it. That's why I say in other places that the Korean wave is more like a "Korean flood". They haven't won or been nominated for an Oscar. No Grammys. No broadway plays portraying Korean culture. To fend of a previous comment about Koreans portraying Japanese characters, I have no problem with that. But what I will add onto that comment is that all virtually all the movies had Japanese portraying - that's right - JAPANESE! Of those parts mentioned like Speed Racer, Geisha, etc. they weren't portraying Koreans!

That's why I see the wave as somewhat of a joke... You have Koreans singing in English. You have Korean actors portraying other Asians. Why can't the Koreans sing in Korean, and then break into the Billboard 100 like Sakamoto Kyu did back in the 1960s? Why can't Hollywood produce movies about Korean culture? Or produce a Korean TV show on a major TV network, like Pink Lady did on NBC in 1979?

As I've said all along... If you plan on taking Hollywood and America by storm, you've got many other cultural acts to fight. As far as America sees it, there's a whole lot more Chinese, Japanese and even Indian culture here than Korean.

That's where I'm coming from...

--- groink

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same goes for you

Post by watermelonghost » Jun 3rd, '09, 04:34

groink wrote:
groink wrote:"That's basically how I see the Koreans - just a nation filled with "Look at me! Look at me!" folks. I mean, why can't they be like many other nations and just enjoy the fact that they're big in their own country? Fricking bunch of posers if you ask me!
Okay, that's fair. I did indeed say that. And I do stand behind the idea. I keep seeing the likes of Bi and other artists who are go way overboard in trying to get themselves recognized by the world. Whenever I see arguments on boards such as Wikipedia, trying to compare Bi's "importance" to society to that of John Lennon, Elton John, Michael Jackson, Bob Geldof, Bono.... There are NO Korean artists that have achieved the status of being as important as the names I rattled off. That's why I call people like Bi "posers" - trying to pretend that in less than eight years, they've become this big huge image just because of some poll in Time Magazine. These Korean artists have a LOT more work cut out for them if they want to achieve international notoriety beyond their crafts.

I justify insulting the wave followers under the same ideology as Apple fanboys, left/right wingers in politics, or BMW owners. They're zealots! All of them! I don't like zealots. I think the world can live on without them. My friend's mother is one of these wave zealots... She watched a Korean drama, and next she's traveling to Korea, eating Korean food every night, attending K-drama clubs... And finally, she's starts trashing Japanese dramas that her own flesh-and-blood son loves. She's a zealot, and I told her that.

Anytime a zealot becomes defensive, their arguments go way beyond the scope of the argument. It becomes personal. That's why I don't like them! You cannot argue logically with them. A close friend of mine even wrote about Apple fans and how they basically evangelize the movement. I've witnessed the Apple movement since the early 1980s. I see the Korean wave becoming virtually identical in practice. And again, I think these zealots should just enjoy what they like, and not attempt to push their ideology onto others.

And last, the reason why I think the wave is unjustified is because, as an American, I don't like the idea of flooding America with entertainment, but have nothing to show of it. That's why I say in other places that the Korean wave is more like a "Korean flood". They haven't won or been nominated for an Oscar. No Grammys. No broadway plays portraying Korean culture. To fend of a previous comment about Koreans portraying Japanese characters, I have no problem with that. But what I will add onto that comment is that all virtually all the movies had Japanese portraying - that's right - JAPANESE! Of those parts mentioned like Speed Racer, Geisha, etc. they weren't portraying Koreans!

That's why I see the wave as somewhat of a joke... You have Koreans singing in English. You have Korean actors portraying other Asians. Why can't the Koreans sing in Korean, and then break into the Billboard 100 like Sakamoto Kyu did back in the 1960s? Why can't Hollywood produce movies about Korean culture? Or produce a Korean TV show on a major TV network, like Pink Lady did on NBC in 1979?

As I've said all along... If you plan on taking Hollywood and America by storm, you've got many other cultural acts to fight. As far as America sees it, there's a whole lot more Chinese, Japanese and even Indian culture here than Korean.

That's where I'm coming from...

--- groink
jesus groink... give it a break will yah??
look, i guess to be fair , i shouldnt have mentioned history either, when we were argueing about korean wave waning or the media.... so due to all fairness, i'll leave this out, and you can leave out the details about the crazy fans of korean wave, i mean their just fans just like anime/manga fans,, which nobody said anything to them... are they not zealots too? white women dressing in kimonos, eating sushi, udons, guys buying bamboo stores from stores like mitsuwa, etc....
sounds fair to you? so if ur ganna continue ranting about this topic, how about we all just be mature about it?

surely korea is less mentioned in other countries,, especially culturally ... due to money always dominating... think about all the media,,, they display only those of rich countries, like america, germany, russia, india, japan , and china.... growing economy like korea, india, australia, and other country is new to this game, so its only fair to give them time...

korea havent won many awards, nominations, or oscars surely.... but that applies for china and japan as well... maybe jackie chan, jet lie, and bruce lee might have won some kind of award but for their stunts and motion, maybe not for acting.... but how about japan?
for youre information, korean actors have only just arrived in america... like daniel hanney, rain, boa, ee byung won, etc... and obviously they are not ganna go far with only like 3~4 years of debut....... also korean americas like jamie chung (samurai girl and dragonball) and john cho (harold and kumar), FYI they have won awards, especially john cho, he has gotten nominated 3 times... so get youre facts right, please....

one last thing... as a korean, i will say korea cannot compete with america....
america's GDP surpasses korea by 15 times, racially diverse, been in the film business for a longer time, and was the most accumulated country by far as any other....
the same will go for dominating japan, china, germany, russia, or any other countries if youre ganna compare to america...
look at bollywood films (indian), they get ridiculed all the time, but do they still have the need to move up? sure they do... they are economically growing country...

and surely alot of korean culture isnt mentioned, so is korean people in the media...
but recently, that has been increasing.... if you noticed... like d-wars, harold and kumar...
and matter of time before they are shown more often... due to korean wave...

i mean ,,, im ganna ask u nicely, groink...
korean wave has been the only thing big for koreans to be proud of, we never was proud of anything else, except samsung and LG...u happy that i admit that?
so why dont u let them have their moment, rather than degrading it?? recently j-dramas went up too, so did taiwan, chinese war films, indian bollywood.. why are you ranting on koreans? can u just let us be? please? pretty please with a cherry on top?

youre right, korean wave might be waning some time soon, but not yet, since it just started.
so why do you have to like point out some dick comments on them?
Last edited by watermelonghost on Jun 3rd, '09, 04:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by groink » Jun 3rd, '09, 04:52

watermelonghost wrote:why are you ranting on koreans? can u just let us be? please? pretty please with a cherry on top?
Ummm... Wait, let me guess.... Because the name of this topic is "The Korean Wave: Is It Really Waning?" I seriously don't believe the original poster of this topic meant that as a rhetorical question. If he did mean it rhetorically, and did not want any commentary to counter his point, he should have said that in the first place. Or better yet, he should have never posted about it because, as everyone else should know, there is no such thing as a rhetorical question on message boards.

And I'm going to say this again one more time... Before you came along, my last post on this subject was MARCH 2008!!!!! If you just shut your trap early on and let the topic die, then none of us would be arguing right now. Can't you understand that? There's a reason why on the Internet we call what you do "grave digging." The Internet does not like grave diggers. Topics should die off. It is YOU who woke it back up. You cannot go on waking up dead topics for your own gratification, and then expect us to shut up about it. Gawd, I can't believe you don't understand what you're doing.

--- groink

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Post by watermelonghost » Jun 3rd, '09, 05:02

groink wrote:
watermelonghost wrote:why are you ranting on koreans? can u just let us be? please? pretty please with a cherry on top?
Ummm... Wait, let me guess.... Because the name of this topic is "The Korean Wave: Is It Really Waning?" I seriously don't believe the original poster of this topic meant that as a rhetorical question. If he did mean it rhetorically, and did not want any commentary to counter his point, he should have said that in the first place. Or better yet, he should have never posted about it because, as everyone else should know, there is no such thing as a rhetorical question on message boards.

And I'm going to say this again one more time... Before you came along, my last post on this subject was MARCH 2008!!!!! If you just shut your trap early on and let the topic die, then none of us would be arguing right now. Can't you understand that? There's a reason why on the Internet we call what you do "grave digging." The Internet does not like grave diggers. Topics should die off. It is YOU who woke it back up. You cannot go on waking up dead topics for your own gratification, and then expect us to shut up about it. Gawd, I can't believe you don't understand what you're doing.

--- groink
ahhh, smart ass,.... nice one....

i was trying sound nice now, but u just fucked with me once more...

first off, typical trollers on the net (namely you)...
you know im right :) about other things i said... so you just purposely choose 1 of the things i say that fits to youre flaws and rant about that...
typical flamers....

secondly.... youre right FOR ONCE...
i am a gravedigger... cause i dont want insults to be left as it is... no matter how long it has been, and this site is still live and kicking... this thread did not die either... its been going on for 3 years surprisingly...
guess why? cause some dickless pricks been ranting consecutively every f***ing page, like korean wave this korean wave that, korean wave this korean wave that...
in EVERY DAMN KOREAN THREAD I SEE IN THIS SITE....
i see in the front page "last posted by this ****" "last posted by this ****"

threads dont die , cause trollers lurk around...
i wonder who does this? *ahem* groink *ahem * cough cough***...

if you took grade school, u should know how to count right???
look at youreself in every page of this f*cking thread..
and youll see who the real gravedigger is....

YES I KNOW.. THE QUESTION IS "IS KOREAN WAVE WANING"
and youre answer is
- OH THIS BRAINWASHED PEOPLE THIS
- AMERICA AWARDS THAT
- JAPAN DOES THIS AND THAT BETTER
- BLAH BLAH BLAH, YACK YACK YACK
instead of lecturing me,,, why dont u read the title first huh?
wow, you make laugh... friend...

god damn it... why cant i ever reason with trollers?
CAUSE REASONING IS THEIR DISABILITY...
ITS FLAMING THAT THEY EXCESS AT.....

U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-N-D E-N-G-L-I-S-H ?
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 ?

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Post by aNToK » Jun 3rd, '09, 06:21

Ugh. Frankly, I don't exactly share groink's views on the whole wave thing, but watermelon, you're sincerely out of your melon with your ridiculous little misguided rants. You have devolved rapidly into a crazed, rabid little foaming-at-the-mouth little caricature of a poster.

You are not the last bastion of hope or defense for Korea, so kindly get over yourself. Or if you insist on being a militant little wannabe savior, try getting your English above a Babelfish level, stick to at least one of the topics being "debated," and don't blatantly accuse people of things that you're doing yourself.

Just curious, do you plan on digging through every post put out since d-addicts started looking for anything you view to not be pro-Korea? Good luck with that. You won't last very long.

And fyi, it was YOU who went digging up old-ass stuff from loooong before you were ever here, so who exactly is it gravedigging and trolling? Too bad that you weren't around to toss your opinion in at the time, eh? Again, get over it, and yourself.


On the plus side, at least one of the other threads has been relatively quiet lately....

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Post by Akinaka » Jun 3rd, '09, 06:46

I don't exactly care about such "waves", nor does anything last forever. It will wane one day. Of course. Fluctuations of a free market. And every market reaches a certain saturation at one point. Plus... then something new pops up. Who knows, the next hype might be German comedies from the 70s. Which I hope it won't, cause those movies were HORRIBLE.

And well, watermelon, the only troll I see is you. You're the one throwing around the F word and calling people dickless pricks, etc.

A common rule in discussion is: the one who starts cussing first has already lost, because he can't argue his points, nor can he defend them, and thus has to resort to foul language and personal attacks.

Besides... Obviously old thread is obviously old. Necroposting is bad.

Now...

Penguin World Domination... Discuss.

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Post by watermelonghost » Jun 3rd, '09, 07:04

aNToK wrote:Ugh. Frankly, I don't exactly share groink's views on the whole wave thing, but watermelon, you're sincerely out of your melon with your ridiculous little misguided rants. You have devolved rapidly into a crazed, rabid little foaming-at-the-mouth little caricature of a poster.

You are not the last bastion of hope or defense for Korea, so kindly get over yourself. Or if you insist on being a militant little wannabe savior, try getting your English above a Babelfish level, stick to at least one of the topics being "debated," and don't blatantly accuse people of things that you're doing yourself.

Just curious, do you plan on digging through every post put out since d-addicts started looking for anything you view to not be pro-Korea? Good luck with that. You won't last very long.

And fyi, it was YOU who went digging up old-ass stuff from loooong before you were ever here, so who exactly is it gravedigging and trolling? Too bad that you weren't around to toss your opinion in at the time, eh? Again, get over it, and yourself.


On the plus side, at least one of the other threads has been relatively quiet lately....
yea youre right... sorry, guess he wasnt worth it...

just something i wanna say to you

- i aint a wanna be savior, hes ripping on koreans, so im ripping on him...

- groinks been here for 3 years, been in every damn post in korean section, whereas ive been here for like a month, and posted only like 5 topics,, hes like flaming on every little korean wave topics,,, i mean the japanese topic is right above it, and china topic below in the forum section, tell him to stick with his own country...

- watch him, hes ganna continue ranting in other threads too... so im just making him realise he's wasting his life ripping on a country he feels envious of... i mean , this guy really has no life... hes been here for 3 years, and been yacking for 3 years,,, and probably yack for another 3 years... like he has a grudge against koreans,,, probably had his sweetheart leave him for a korean men.... sad... making other koreans feel like sh*t wont cure his pain..... every post ive read so far, i see this clown, jacking it...

- groink is a hypocrit ,,, the topic "i want a korean boyfriend", has been kept alive for 2 years by this jerk off... and hes still here now, creating more on new ones...
did you say im the troll? whos the one whos been here for decades?
@groink : do you feel like a god? being stuck in this place, having people listen to youre worthless ranting?

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Post by aNToK » Jun 3rd, '09, 17:05

Y'see, here's the problem, melon. Just for the hell of it, you mentioned that groink was trolling and "keeping the thread alive for 3 years" in reference to the Korean boyfriend thread. What I saw was a last post by him back in 2006 until he wrote a response to you and hanryu-whatever recently that you didn't like. 2 and a half years between posts in a thread is hardly "keeping the thread alive," so can you see where I'm going here?

He's got his views on things and isn't shy about saying them. Again, I agree with some and disagree with others, but I definitely do agree about people dragging old issues up out of the grave and using them as some kind of imaginary battering ram to defend positions where they have zero relevance.You are having exactly the same argument here that you were over in the other thread.

OK, so it' pretty apparent that groink's preferences lie more towards things Japanese and have for quite some time and that he's irked because he feels that a lot of Koreans and Korean Wave Riders (new term?) are too **** and/or full of themselves with regard to their relatively newfound popularity and overestimating the historical importance of their pop icons at the current time. And yes, that's what I got from what I've read, not what he's told me.

Guess what? He's allowed to feel that way. Just as you're allowed to feel the exact opposite if you want to. So if you want to argue or defend a position, then come back with something a little more relevant than ancient history and personal insults that do nothing but prove your opponent's point for him.

Stuff like "he has no life, "ripping a country he feels envious of," " "had his sweetheart leave him for a Korean man," only help boost his points of view because you are acting EXACTLY like he accuses many Koreans of acting. If you want to state a differing opinion, then offer something relevant instead of that drivel.

And I'll say this about the last sentence: Over 2 1/2 years between posts in a topic, and then that post being in response to comments that you and a few others made in that thread hardly make someone a "troll." Fact of the matter is that someone posted comments that you don't agree with, and apparently have no answer for, so you're going the poorly-conceived personal attack and unrelated information route. It doesn't work, ever.

Am I the only one who finds it a bit ironic that the newer and younger folks are much more prone to dragging up crap from 70 years ago that they have absolutely no current reference for when they don't have an answer to someone else's opinions? I have yet to ever hear my wife bring up the Rape Of Nanking as a defense or point of reference in an argument regarding Japanese culture or entertainment, and she has relatives that lived through it (and many who didn't). Why? because they have absolutely zero relevance to the subject at hand!

So again, before I end up typing another novel, get over yourself. You have an issue with groink, fine, live with it. You want to dig through every post for every slight, real or imagined, against anything Korean on this board, then you'll find a long, frustrating, and utterly useless posting experience here.Come up with some valid and relevant counters to points you disagree with and not just personal attacks that prove the point of your erstwhile opponent. Or simply be labeled an impotent troll and keep digging those graves....
Last edited by aNToK on Jun 3rd, '09, 17:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by aNToK » Jun 3rd, '09, 17:07

Hmm.. I guess the swear filter doesn't like the word c.o.c.k.y. Whatever would we do if we were talking about chickens???????

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Post by kuro570 » Jun 3rd, '09, 17:45

@watermelonghost I didn't say you guys were (actually my Korean friends **** about it) I was only using it as an example.

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Post by cool_drama » Jun 3rd, '09, 18:12

@groink

I can see that you favor things Japanese over Korean. Japan in general is the better country, no doubt. Japan has also been influencing America for some time now, on the other hand, Korea has just been rising and she is still trying to make an influence. A lot of remakes of Korean films were made recently by Hollywood such as The Lake House and My Sassy Girl; that shows that Korean entertainment has improved and is being acknowledged. Sure it doesn't compare to Japan yet.

You are comparing two countries here with different cultural values, which is not right. But that's not my point. I am neither Japanese nor Korean, I am an American too and I am not defending neither country. My point is that there is nothing wrong with following something that you like, be it the Japanese wave, Korean wave, African wave, you name it. They don't deserve to be insulted because of that. There will always be zealots for everything, like the Mac zealots, the Linux, the Windows...whatever. I am a Windows guy and I can tell you that the Windows zealots are no better than the Macs. You'll end up disliking everything if you base on a few zealots to make an opinion. Once again, I see nothing wrong with following the Korean Wave, which came about because of Korea's undoubtedly entertaining entertainment.

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