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Fan DUBBING Has it ever been successful?

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Fantastical
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Fan DUBBING Has it ever been successful?

Post by Fantastical » Feb 11th, '10, 04:41

Does anybody know of any group that use to do fan Dubbing?
If it would work for anime why not Dramas?
And why not us?
Would it be legally different in comparion to fansubs?

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Post by JaJe » Feb 11th, '10, 14:18

I don´t know any group that would have done any fandubbing.
I hate dubbed animes so I definitely won´t not watch any dubbed jdorama (if someone should dub some). :x:x:x:x:x:x:x:x
1) Dubbing ruins the real expressions :crazy:
2) Dubbed jdoramas wouldn´t teach language ( I learn a lot by hearing so it is important to me) :roll
3) some actors/actresses have really cute voice which I enjoy to listen :D :x

Probably it wouldn´t be so popular, so dubbing jdoramas would be waste of time.

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Post by yt_toshi » Feb 11th, '10, 14:46

I agree with the points that JaJe mentioned about dubbing. IMHO, most of the dubs I've seen from various movies and shows are horrible to the point that I would rather laugh at it than pay attention to what is said. I can't remember the last time I saw a dubbed movie or show that was didn't make me laugh.

Of course, there will be some people that dubs over subs, but I think a majority would rather have it as it is right now.

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Re: Fan DUBBING Has it ever been successful?

Post by popoycanton » Feb 11th, '10, 15:20

Fantastical wrote:Does anybody know of any group that use to do fan Dubbing?
If it would work for anime why not Dramas?
And why not us?
Would it be legally different in comparion to fansubs?
Anime fan dub? well that's news me. Just to be clear, we all know that the studios do their own dubs right.

Well, anyway, dramas do get dubbed when they are picked up by other countries. No different than the Spanish soaps they dub in your local language.

On a side note, I also prefer anime in Japanese & dubbing sucks, but of course there are a few exceptions like the cowboy beebop dub, that was excellent.

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Re: Fan DUBBING Has it ever been successful?

Post by Fantastical » Feb 13th, '10, 05:14

popoycanton wrote:
On a side note, I also prefer anime in Japanese & dubbing sucks, but of course there are a few exceptions like the cowboy beebop dub, that was excellent.
Cowboy Bebop...most certainly.
Trigun was another good dub as was Ghost in the Shell.

Personally, I have to watch an anime subtitled if it's a historical setting or it just loses flavor.
If it's set n the future then why not dub?

Why not fan dub dramas if the setting is right? :unsure:

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Post by Puppet Princess » Feb 13th, '10, 05:28

Because drama watchers generally have more of a life than that?
Dubbing would take a lot more time, effort, and well... skill to produce. Think about some of the poorly done subs that have been released here. Do you really want to hear dubs from the people who produced something that was already pretty bad in writing?

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Post by ikanteri » Feb 20th, '10, 12:03

Puppet Princess wrote:Because drama watchers generally have more of a life than that?
Dubbing would take a lot more time, effort, and well... skill to produce. Think about some of the poorly done subs that have been released here. Do you really want to hear dubs from the people who produced something that was already pretty bad in writing?
No! ^^;;
I think if a drama gonna airing overseas, the local station usually gonna dubbing it too. That goes with my local stations.

I've watched some dramas with dubbing, but I DO prefer the real voice. Especially when I love the casts and their voices, of course I don't want their voices to be change by some unknown voices.
Not to mention a different dialect or the deep emotion which might be missing. What if the dubbers couldn't express the emotions well...
So I still prefer subs than dubbing :)

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Post by Fantastical » Mar 8th, '10, 02:47

ikanteri wrote:
Puppet Princess wrote:Because drama watchers generally have more of a life than that?
Dubbing would take a lot more time, effort, and well... skill to produce. Think about some of the poorly done subs that have been released here. Do you really want to hear dubs from the people who produced something that was already pretty bad in writing?
No! ^^;;
I think if a drama gonna airing overseas, the local station usually gonna dubbing it too. That goes with my local stations.

I've watched some dramas with dubbing, but I DO prefer the real voice. Especially when I love the casts and their voices, of course I don't want their voices to be change by some unknown voices.
Not to mention a different dialect or the deep emotion which might be missing. What if the dubbers couldn't express the emotions well...
So I still prefer subs than dubbing :)
Look at anime. That is dubbed to death. a lot of the new ones have great dubbing. Cowboy Bebop,bleach, and Ghost in the Shell comes to mind.

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Post by hey9 » Mar 22nd, '10, 22:24

You think professional anime dubs were bad, just watch some of the fandubs that were released - yech.

Personally, I liked the older anime fandubs (e.g. sailor moon). Can't see it working for live-action shows, probably end up with something akin to dubbed old kung fu movies.

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Post by Fantastical » Mar 22nd, '10, 22:42

hey9 wrote: probably end up with something akin to dubbed old kung fu movies.
Oh...those were delicious!

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Post by Ethlenn » Mar 22nd, '10, 23:03

Fantastical wrote:
Look at anime. That is dubbed to death. a lot of the new ones have great dubbing. Cowboy Bebop,bleach, and Ghost in the Shell comes to mind.
GITS??
You're dead meat, pal, for saying this. English dubbing sucks in GITS big time! :cussing:

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Post by Sayumi » Mar 22nd, '10, 23:06

the question is: WHY would you want a dubbed version instead of a sub?
what are the advantages?
we usually watch dramas bcz we love the culture of that country - dubbing it in spanish or english or whatever is just YUCK - it's like owing it to that language
what i love about fansubs is that they respect the original language - they put sidenotes whenever there's sth not 'usual' to us (like in japanese saying 'onisan' to a guy that's not your brother) or jokes in that language. It's how we get to know the culture.
When you go dub that, you lose most of that. It's like not original anymore. And personally, when i watch dubbed movies, i really notice its dubbed and it starts to irritate me. You can really notice it's not the real voice.
So i dont really see a point in dubbing sth...

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Post by kuro570 » Mar 22nd, '10, 23:08

Then again though dubbing may be a great way to introduce some dramas to those who really don't care about the culture and just want a good story. I have a ton of friends that don't give two rats ass about japanese/korean language and want to try a drama or movie but wouldn't give them a try because they don't like to read subs. That would be a great way to introduce dramas to those sort of people. One problem though... I don't think it could be pulled off by fansubbers since it takes time and talent.

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Post by Fantastical » Mar 22nd, '10, 23:11

Ethlenn wrote:
Fantastical wrote:
Look at anime. That is dubbed to death. a lot of the new ones have great dubbing. Cowboy Bebop,bleach, and Ghost in the Shell comes to mind.
GITS??
You're dead meat, pal, for saying this. English dubbing sucks in GITS big time! :cussing:
You shut your mouth!
Anything that Mary Elizabeth McGlynn touches is gold.

GOLD I TELL YA GOLD! :argue:

You are on such a time out !

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Post by Ethlenn » Mar 23rd, '10, 00:14

:note: :whistling: :note:

Magerarenai onna, watashi da yo!!
I watch anime only in Japanese. If it has English dubbing, I pass. I just love seiyuu's work, that's all, I think they are the best. The rest dubbers on the world can hold a script for them. :lol :lol

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Post by Fantastical » Mar 23rd, '10, 02:07

Ethlenn wrote::note: :whistling: :note:

Magerarenai onna, watashi da yo!!
I watch anime only in Japanese. If it has English dubbing, I pass. I just love seiyuu's work, that's all, I think they are the best. The rest dubbers on the world can hold a script for them. :lol :lol
It's gotten alot better these days A LOT better then again in depends on the stabe that has the better Voice ACtors Hellsing in english.....oh god yes...Dragonball Z in english.......meh....

Bck in the day very few actors did a decent job and the ones that got in trouble had to do hentai on top of that.

(side note voic acting for hentai is never as much fun as WATCHING somebody voice act for hentai. you can still hear mistakes in the old Bible Black)

If you were a fan of Silent Hill and you loved the song Not Here then you know of Mary ELizabeth McGlynn I think she is the first female to direct/produc and fire and rehire an entire cast of voice actors becasue they were dicking around.
Helll watch Cowboy Bebop and you can hear her as Faye Valentine.
or most video games because 90% of voice actors for video games these days were trained by her. Yeah...pre-Resident Evil
now how the hell did this get :offtopic: ?

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Post by SeraEris » Mar 30th, '10, 16:35

When I see that word that starts with a D and ends with an "ub" I want to PUKE!

MAN seriously the butchering that has been done during the years to a great load of Anime isn't enough? Why the HELL would anyone in a right mind would think of butchering great TV series by dubbing them!! :x :glare: :glare: :x

WHAT THE HELL is so freaking difficult in READING SUBS!!!! :cussing: :cussing:
and don't start with the "You lose the action", there is no such thing.
minus points on Dubbing:
1. no matter how amazing the voice actor can be, THEY WOULD NEVER EVER be the character.
2. Cultural references simply disappear
3. when a character is struggling, the Dubber sounds like they have a fake orgasm!
4. you'll never know the original voices of the characters
5. complete loss of the feelings
6. localized jokes and phrases, which is bluh because Japanese would never say some things that had been heard in Dubs
7. CENSORSHIP
8. most of the times dialogues don't even make sense
plus points?
NONE

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Post by Fantastical » Mar 30th, '10, 18:18

SeraEris wrote:When I see that word that starts with a D and ends with an "ub" I want to PUKE!

MAN seriously the butchering that has been done during the years to a great load of Anime isn't enough? Why the HELL would anyone in a right mind would think of butchering great TV series by dubbing them!! :x :glare: :glare: :x

WHAT THE HELL is so freaking difficult in READING SUBS!!!! :cussing: :cussing:
and don't start with the "You lose the action", there is no such thing.
minus points on Dubbing:
1. no matter how amazing the voice actor can be, THEY WOULD NEVER EVER be the character.
2. Cultural references simply disappear
3. when a character is struggling, the Dubber sounds like they have a fake orgasm!
4. you'll never know the original voices of the characters
5. complete loss of the feelings
6. localized jokes and phrases, which is bluh because Japanese would never say some things that had been heard in Dubs
7. CENSORSHIP
8. most of the times dialogues don't even make sense
plus points?
NONE
note the word "fandub"

1. I can give you that. it's a toss up. in my opinion. Actor...sure..character? I don't know.
There has been at least 2 live action Cutey Honey live action records. one was a tv series and one was a movie. different actresses but both portrayed Cutey They read the script, researched the character (I hope) and portrayed the characters to what the director said it should be. The same for any actor/actress director relationship. If a director who understands who or what the character is and conveys that to the actor/actress be it tonal inflection, hand gestures,any number of characteristics that would portray the CHARACTER and NOT THE ACTOR. However, and this is where a lot of people can complain. DIALECTS and ACCENTS.

A good example of dialect and accents going wrong is Love Hina. One of my favourite characters named Kitsune" is to be depicted with a southern accent. Southern as far as Japan is concerned. However if you being an American director not knowing what they mean by Southern accent you may think southern as far as American Southern and not Japanese southern of couse BIG difference. If you don't know the difference between Bara-Ben, Buya-Ben and other dialects and accents and apply what you know as he did then you are pretty much screwing up the feel of the character by not researching the character. However that can happen in a lare studio and with the sudden boom of anime in the states (through licensing that is) thanks in part to the success of show like (yes it pains me to say it) Power Rangers which is indeed a dubbed show.
That show showed that importing shows from Japan can be profitable if given enough money for research and of course given enough time. back in the early 80's when Akira first hit the scene there were plenty of other anime but due to limited budgets and a disrespected job as a voice actor many studios died and was adsorbed. So *shivers* Power Rangers gave way to other shows. One notably as Dragonball Z There have been earlier attempts with succesful animes such as Starblazers and Sailor Moon but none had the overall instant cult hit as Dragonball Z. Funny enough it did fall flat on its face due to bad dubbing and poorly casted characters and censorship. instead of saying I'm gonna kill you they said send you to another dimension to explain the afterlife. Of course when you have that many fans that already loved the original they would not sit by and listen to their favorite characters get mishandled. So they they recasted it and redone it. The success of the studios grabbed more and more anime. some knew what they were doing like Viz and Funimation (sometimes) and then there were groups like for kids ( I refuse to capitalised for kids because there practices are Against Kids in my opinion) However, a fandub will have some of the problems but then again a fandub would have many advantages. a love for that particular show being one of them. If they had the time they could cas the approiate people who they know and love the show and not just their best best friend for like foreva! Someone that has an idea of breath control, an idea of how to use their entire body and not just read a script. It worked wonders for Studio Ghibli.

2. that depends on the studio. But to use Viz and Funimation for examples their dubbing in the early days were indeed horrible. groups like animEigo and U.S. Manga Corps did indeed suck dirty donkey dong. In fact if one was watch an Early Rendition of Bible Black...(lemme dig it up...ahh there it is..) I believe in either Origins or Revelations you can hear the one of the voice actresses say "whoops" because she repeated her line twice. The studio was whoever was in charge of Kitty Grade media was responsible for that. (How dare they take the art of tentacle rape as a joke!)
As far as cultural references that's pretty broad statement. There are a few anime studios that take painstaking efforts to ensure that when a word is said there is an asterisk to let someone who is new knows what the word means in that particular context. You've seen it in fansubs it can happen in fandubs.

3. ANY person struggling sounds like they are having an orgasm. Tie up your next lover and see for yourself pre and post coitus.

4. You can change the channel from the original voice with subtitles to the dubbed voice. it really wouldn't be that hard. It worked for the Simpsons and it's one of the most world renowned animations across the world.

5. see director. a good example of that would be and it pains me to say this sooooo mcuh Star Wars in the movies and scenes that George Lucas directed there is a lack of emotion. it's pretty freaking bad. hayden Christian does have a decent set of range of his acting ability BUT that is what George Lucas wanted and that is what he gets.

6. depends on the studio. and god knows how many fansubs we have see over the years with dialect and phrasing that is quite frankly just butt crack nasty to read.
Example: AIGOO! kinda means OMG! an exclamation of frustration. One cold replace that with "Oh My God" "Jeees" "ARRGGHH" depending on the region
But if it's a refference to an honorific such as -chan , -san, -sama, -donno then there can be a dilemma. Should the director keep everyone's honorific intact and keep her as Kitsune-Donno or Miss Kitsune? Me personally if it's a historical or straight dead in japan drama then sure. keep the honorific but if it happens to be a space setting in the future then drop it. Why? New Frontiers and new honorific. For some reason The Japanese Defence force started calling each other Mister for some reason when it came to their naval forces. It kinda weirded me out watching them as I worked with them in Okinawa. but I guess with working with the American fleet for so long I guess they picked it up. could have been localised with that ship. *shrugs* Maybe it as to help us feel natural but then..why say Mr. Takashiro and the rest in Japanese? But I digress.

7. who likes censorship? parents and large companies that believe that little Billy wants to buy the anime so mommy can get it but not Lance the Otaku that has a every Gundam ever made.

8. Depends on the studio. even a fansub can be crap. but thank goodness there are dedicated individuals such as WITHS2, HaruSubs, etc that have people and funding to do a good job.

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Post by SeraEris » Mar 30th, '10, 19:06

2. why to bother for a "fan" dub if you have to put asterisks and little texting every other word that is not understandable? just read the freaking SUBS from the start.
3. I said FAKE orgasm. I think there is quite the difference...

In the rest of the points you mentioned a director, and actors' abilities. But since when a fandubbing group would have a director and actors??

but still didn't tell me Why is so difficult to read subs!
also I have another question. Why are you so font of Dubs when you have a good sub?
Why Dub lovers are ready to sacrifice the originality of the work just for not read subs?

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Post by Fantastical » Mar 30th, '10, 19:19

ah..yes..almost forgot the plus part.
Well sure there might be some dilution in doing dubs in general but the plus part is reaching a broader audience.
I would love for fan-subbing groups to be paid by big companies for subbing their movies and tv shows.
also the whole "piracy thing is annoying and ridiculous. Dubbing would indeed have to be handled delicately.
There are damn good actors out there that can handle it.
I mean anime has voice overs when it's in Japan right? The cartoon doesn't speak but a seiyu does for the character the actor has to follow the vision of the director while giving his own life into the character.
It can be done. With the way the wonder girls and other asian actors blowing up the scene it's gonna happen sooner than we think.
With our without us. We should tell the what we expect and why.
I would love to have a convention of asian drama actors. They coming over seas speaking to us signing autographs and us buying their doo-dads knick knacks and other things. But until they believe that we will buy it they aren't gonna do it. They won't set foot up in here like they use to do in anime conventions.

Anime studios get paid on licensing. hen it comes over here. A company has to pay for the right to make t-shirts cups, hats, whatever. Since there are no ads being bought unless it's to a dedicated cable company. usually at a premium rate.
WHat would fandubbing do? If in the hands of peoepl that love that one show to death it would act like an audio animatic.
AN animatic is a moving storyboard. it tells the editors and cinematographers where to shoot and how to shoot in motion.
a fandub would show what the fans ant. How to handle that word or situation from someone that is the target audience.
Since we already provided an example of how to handle this or that situation hopefully from now on it would be done with the utmost care that we the fans handled it.

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Post by SeraEris » Mar 30th, '10, 19:29

I simply DO NOT want to see that day of western cultures will start licensing AND dubbing J-dramas T_T......

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Post by kuro570 » Mar 30th, '10, 19:35

SeraEris wrote:2. why to bother for a "fan" dub if you have to put asterisks and little texting every other word that is not understandable? just read the freaking SUBS from the start.
3. I said FAKE orgasm. I think there is quite the difference...

In the rest of the points you mentioned a director, and actors' abilities. But since when a fandubbing group would have a director and actors??

but still didn't tell me Why is so difficult to read subs!
also I have another question. Why are you so font of Dubs when you have a good sub?
Why Dub lovers are ready to sacrifice the originality of the work just for not read subs?
Most people don't like having to read while watching a movie or even drama. It takes away from the experience of viewing the action on screen instead of paying attention to subs. Also your average person who likes movies may not know or really even care about customs and traditions of another country let alone being told how it fits into a joke.
Heck I don't even like subtitles in dramas but half the time raw files are no longer seeded and the only copy of dramas with seeds are usually those rereleased by fansub groups.

While I do agree that dubs has the potential to drop the true experience a bit its much better than a full remake into another countries traditions, i.e. Chakushin Ari, The Grudge etc, etc, etc. To be honest and no hard feelings but I doubt many if any of the fansubbers have the talent to do dubs or even the time required.

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Post by Cherek » Mar 30th, '10, 19:36

Seems like fantastical rly rly rly wants to voice in for a certain drama ^^

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Post by Ethlenn » Mar 30th, '10, 19:41

kuro570 wrote: Heck I don't even like subtitles in dramas but half the time raw files are no longer seeded and the only copy of dramas with seeds are usually those rereleased by fansub groups.
True, true, that is why I have to put up with all this pink, blue, green styles and fonts... I know it's a hard work to make it, but leaving just plain text would be fine. <monku>
RAW files are instantly without seeders though.
Everyone should learn some languages, you know. :cussing:

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Post by Fantastical » Mar 30th, '10, 19:49

Cherek wrote:Seems like fantastical rly rly rly wants to voice in for a certain drama ^^
LMAO No I just want to see something different.

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Post by SeraEris » Mar 30th, '10, 19:57

kuro570 wrote: Most people don't like having to read while watching a movie or even drama. It takes away from the experience of viewing the action on screen instead of paying attention to subs. Also your average person who likes movies may not know or really even care about customs and traditions of another country let alone being told how it fits into a joke.
no offense to anyone but why it is only North Americans who wouldn't bother to read subs? every single time I have such debate with someone it is always someone from NA that would go with those excuses...

I read subs all my life since my country has a lousy excuse for a dubbing group [thankfully] and they only dub latin soap operas and cartoons. though when I was little I had the joy to watch loney toons SUBBED and not dubbed.
Subs do not take away the action! it is a matter of training your eye.

average person? Since when J-dramas [or even Anime] became things that an average person watches? And why they should be? Doesn't western cultures have good enough arts for average people to look at?

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subbed or dubbed

Post by TianMoXing » Mar 30th, '10, 20:20

I personally hate dubbed versions. because most of the time the subbed versions are a lot better than the dubbed versions. beside there is also a learning experience included. if you watch an english movie with dutch or french subs you'll learn a lot more than watching an english movie dubbed in french or dutch.
for instance I used to not speak or understand Japanese or Chinese. lately when I'm watching Chinese or Japanese series that are subbed I'm learning my Japanese and Chinese. Now when I'm watching a movie or drama Raw I'll understand 1/2 or 1/3 of the drama or movie. I've already learned a lot by watching subbed versions instead of dubbed versions. I admit I don't know the characters yet. however when it is spoken I'll understand a lot more than I used to.

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Post by hideko » Mar 30th, '10, 20:21

There are a few fairly large fandubbing communities out there, still, although they've been tending towards radio dramas and original projects (radio, animated shorts, and visual novel-style games) for the last few years... It's mostly divided between the people who go "omg anime I wanna be a voice actor!" and the people who are seriously pursuing voice acting (in all mediums - not just anime) or production end stuff like recording and mixing.

I'm not even going to touch the sub vs dub debate, though. >_>

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Post by Ethlenn » Mar 30th, '10, 20:28

What an ardent discussion. I'm interested in. On the professional basis.
But Eris is right, the whole world has nothing against subtitles, only you, lazy people from Big Apple (and other fruits, hehe, pun intended) and kids can't focus^^

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Post by kuro570 » Mar 30th, '10, 20:48

SeraEris wrote:
kuro570 wrote: Most people don't like having to read while watching a movie or even drama. It takes away from the experience of viewing the action on screen instead of paying attention to subs. Also your average person who likes movies may not know or really even care about customs and traditions of another country let alone being told how it fits into a joke.
no offense to anyone but why it is only North Americans who wouldn't bother to read subs? every single time I have such debate with someone it is always someone from NA that would go with those excuses...

I read subs all my life since my country has a lousy excuse for a dubbing group [thankfully] and they only dub latin soap operas and cartoons. though when I was little I had the joy to watch loney toons SUBBED and not dubbed.
Subs do not take away the action! it is a matter of training your eye.

average person? Since when J-dramas [or even Anime] became things that an average person watches? And why they should be? Doesn't western cultures have good enough arts for average people to look at?

Look at teens and kids, most popular thing atm is Bleach, Naruto, Death Note. I mean everyone knows about these anime. Hell I know a kid that didn't even know it was produced in Japan. Everyone watches something foreign, don't act as if you only watch things from your native country because we all do whether you know it or not or even possibly influenced etc. The simple fact is not everyone likes to read a movie, if people want to read a story they'll read a BOOK. Its not being lazy you watch a movie for the movie, the motions of a picture and sounds, you know different than that of a BOOK. You also don't have to be something more than an average person to enjoy foreign entertainment. I admit I watch dramas only because my teacher introduced it to us in class to see different dialects and normal speech but I still enjoy a great many of them, hell if a friend exposed them to me I would have most likely still watched them. Yes watching them as an ordinary person, is something wrong with that?

Do you really think anime, and mangas are popular here because your "average" person don't watch them? You sound like your just too hostile to see the point from others perspectives and only want people to view it from yours.

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Post by SeraEris » Mar 30th, '10, 21:15

well I didn't know what Anime was when I was young! the image of Japan haven't even come to me as a thought back then! that's not an excuse for having a dub and ppl do not like subs.
as for me I actually couldn't care less for what media my country can offer. I have always loved arts from other cultures.
you say that you don't like to read a move, that's fine but when you say that you watch for the motions and sounds sorry but you definitely go for the motion pictures ONLY since the dub sound is not original to the slightest. so either way you lose something. I personally prefer the originality of the audio. also losing a scene or two doesn't exist in my case [and probably others too] since my eyes are trained to observe both the subs and the scenes.

as for the average person question. is Rock music something that everyone listens and enjoys the same? I think not, but it still is very popular and well selling gender of music, with a huge fanbase. an Average person might listen to a random rock song but don't even know the title or the artist.

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Re: subbed or dubbed

Post by Fantastical » Mar 30th, '10, 21:26

TianMoXing wrote:I personally hate dubbed versions. because most of the time the subbed versions are a lot better than the dubbed versions. beside there is also a learning experience included. if you watch an english movie with dutch or french subs you'll learn a lot more than watching an english movie dubbed in french or dutch.
for instance I used to not speak or understand Japanese or Chinese. lately when I'm watching Chinese or Japanese series that are subbed I'm learning my Japanese and Chinese. Now when I'm watching a movie or drama Raw I'll understand 1/2 or 1/3 of the drama or movie. I've already learned a lot by watching subbed versions instead of dubbed versions. I admit I don't know the characters yet. however when it is spoken I'll understand a lot more than I used to.
Tangential Learning

Tangential Learning is the process by which some portion of people will self-educate if a topic is exposed to them in something that they already enjoy such as playing an instrument like the guitar or playing the drums.

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Post by kuro570 » Mar 30th, '10, 21:41

SeraEris wrote:well I didn't know what Anime was when I was young! the image of Japan haven't even come to me as a thought back then! that's not an excuse for having a dub and ppl do not like subs.
as for me I actually couldn't care less for what media my country can offer. I have always loved arts from other cultures.
you say that you don't like to read a move, that's fine but when you say that you watch for the motions and sounds sorry but you definitely go for the motion pictures ONLY since the dub sound is not original to the slightest. so either way you lose something. I personally prefer the originality of the audio. also losing a scene or two doesn't exist in my case [and probably others too] since my eyes are trained to observe both the subs and the scenes.

as for the average person question. is Rock music something that everyone listens and enjoys the same? I think not, but it still is very popular and well selling gender of music, with a huge fanbase. an Average person might listen to a random rock song but don't even know the title or the artist.
When does originality in sound has anything to do with a movie? To be honest many subs still lose out on the finer points of language anyway because sometimes especially in Japanese there are many times there can't be a direct translation and you simply choose to add what best fits, so your whole point of originality and one being better than the other is totally moot. The best subs in my opinion are the subs in the native language since those are truly intended to give the true experience and meaning of things. It also seems to me that most fansubs are meant for your average person that knows nothing about other culture since they seem to always be filled with added text

Like I said before I'm no fan of dubs or a big fan of subs but you have to look at it from perspectives of other people. Seriously get over yourself, your no better than a person that watches something with dubs, your both basically getting a watered down version of dialogue. Also I heard somewhere about learning, well like I said earlier wouldn't using the original CC be more beneficial than reading something that isn't exactly correct over 60% of the time in the spoken dialogue?

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Post by SeraEris » Mar 30th, '10, 22:24

Actually you talked about motion pictures and sound, not me!
anyway you might be right that subs are not accurate but they certainly are more true to the original than a dub which needs also a "fixing of the dialogue to fit in the mouth movements".

fansubs are not for the average person but for those who make a start with the media. [and the references in subs I first saw them in Japanese media, never once I saw references in movies that come from western cultures].

Also the fist subbed anime I watched didn't even have references so I had to look up for things. but that's a way to start. It is how much someone is willing to put into thing, That's how someone stops to be average.

as for subs being incorrect at the 60% of the time, i think that's a bit too much for a percentage. Translation is a translation you'll have a lose one way or another but not THAT much.
For example there is an idiom that we say in my country "It rains chairs' legs" in english the same thing is said as "It rains cats and dogs" or something both mean the exact same thing [that rains very heavily] unfortunately official translations of an english move for example that would use that idiom, it would sub it as "it rains chairs' legs". fansubs tent to translate those things as they are [at least the good fansubs] and them explain that this idiom means that etc.
I don't even know if I make sense, it is way past my sleeping time ...

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Post by Fantastical » Mar 30th, '10, 22:43

SeraEris wrote:2. why to bother for a "fan" dub if you have to put asterisks and little texting every other word that is not understandable? just read the freaking SUBS from the start.
3. I said FAKE orgasm. I think there is quite the difference...

In the rest of the points you mentioned a director, and actors' abilities. But since when a fandubbing group would have a director and actors??

but still didn't tell me Why is so difficult to read subs!
also I have another question. Why are you so font of Dubs when you have a good sub?
Why Dub lovers are ready to sacrifice the originality of the work just for not read subs?
2. There are a lot of subs that don't do the asterisks A lot of fansubs do assume that you are already know certain words, idioms etc. The whole point of subs in the first place is to reach an audience that doesn' know the language.

3. faked orgasm....*sigh* faking an orgasm never does anyone any good. Gotta treat them like the weather report and twitter feeds: constant feeds.

I have no problem with fan subs at all. Depending on the series I prefer subtitles to dub 80% of the time. Since 83 I have been on the anime band wagon.
But I have noticed that anime is usually discovered nowadays by people from some other source. a video game, martial arts class, toys. Yu Gi Oh for example open the eyes for a lot for a lot of kids and adults that would not have normally even been interested in Japan at all. We should welcome and show them around. Show them some subs then hopefully they will take a deeper fascination of the culture of their own.

Since when has there been a director for fandubbing?
I would hope there would be. There are directors for dubbing. Read the credits to some of your favourite anime.
As far as sacrificing the integrity of the work.
I am gonna take a mighty leap and say that you have a proficiency for Asian culture.
I don't know you and I don't know of any measuring device or scale to determine such a thing.

But I will say one word that has carried out into every langauge within the past 20 years

D'oh
yes that sound that Homer Simpson makes when he is in frustration or realised he made a mistake is an international word. The show is one of the most dubbed shows in history.
and i think it's doing pretty well.

While typing this I had to wonder what the japanese would think.
SO I went to a source and I found this.

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/02/2 ... -49-vs-47/

here is an excerpt

"Japanese polled as to whether they prefer subbing or dubbing in their games have by a narrow margin indicated a preference for subs.

The survey, running from 2007-2009 and taking in 6,656 participants, was run both online and in game packaging, quizzed gamers over their preferences for game localisation.

It emerged that 49% of the total preferred subs, whilst 47% opted for dubs of translated titles.

4% mysteriously picked “other” – just how they wanted titles localised is something of a mystery, pictographs are one possibility.

Different genres of games attracted results appropriate to their characteristics – FPS and action gamers preferred dubs to reading text in the heat of the action, whilst RPGs tended to be preferred in sub format.

Interestingly, PS3 gamers preferred dubs by a significant margin, whereas Xbox 360 gamers preferred subs by a similar margin.

In other media, both subs and dubs are common; however, the proportion of movies being shown in theatres subbed is apparently declining – young Japanese movie-goers, it is said, simply cannot read them properly any more."

So I dont know. Maybe the fatc that the XBOX 360 is an American machine with a lot more English titles. I don't know

Again I have nothing against subtitles I repeat
I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST SUBTITLES
They Aren't difficult to read at all.
However did have to train my eye. I trained my eye because I wanted to.
Not as a passing fancy but because I wanted to be able to watch the series that was different than my own that didn't have the same tropes as what I am use to.

Some of us can and do feel a sort of attachmentment to these shows. I totally get that. I feel an attachment to Lupin III and Robotech. I grew up with it. So when a reference to someoen of today replaces a refference to someone older for example replacing the name Chuck Norris for Toshiro Mifune I do go WTF.

Then again I know people that when I mention a Utada Hikaru they have no idea what I am talking about but when I said the woman that sang the commercial for Kingdom Hearts they remember because of the attachment of the video game. Some people got into Disney more because of playing Kingdom Hearts while others discovered the world of Final Fantasy because they wanted to play with their favourite Disney characters.

It's all about a bridge into a new culture. Sure we crossed over. We all have our Pocky connections and have a few Yakisoba stand addresses in our mental file and brag about how much of an Otaku we can be. Who has a limited edition Bubblegum Crisis Laserdisc set autographed by the seiyu. But we forget about the kid that just saw Naruto for the first time and because of that he starts to read on his own. He wants to further explore Japan. We forget about great shows like I.R.I.S. that the public may never see and we forget about anime like Cowboy Bebop because with a great director (Mary Elizabeth McGlynn) who also does her own casting knew how to treat each character because she watched it while it was being aired in Japan. It was not only helped distinguished that an audience that would have normally not watched animation but when the movie which was in theatres (like the series was also being shown in the language of German, French, English as well as Japanese) Yes this was all the way back in 2002 two but I have to ask how many other non dubbed anime got that draw?
Naruto, Evangelion, Escaflowne, not saying that the dubbed version was better but it did bring in a signifigant audience into the culture.

At some point we all saw something that made us want to look at a live action drama. for me It was Cutey Honey. I liked her character and her innocence reminds me of young Goku from Dragonball. Not Dragonball Z...Dragonball. I thought the show was pretty awesome so I looked for more and now here I am. nd so can other peopel to dante, contribute to subs and dubs. dubbing and subbing isn't going ot go away anytime soon but a lot of good dramas we can't get is because of licencing. Some company without care of love is going to screw it up. which one? Take your pick.

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Post by kuro570 » Mar 30th, '10, 22:43

SeraEris wrote:Actually you talked about motion pictures and sound, not me!
anyway you might be right that subs are not accurate but they certainly are more true to the original than a dub which needs also a "fixing of the dialogue to fit in the mouth movements".

fansubs are not for the average person but for those who make a start with the media. [and the references in subs I first saw them in Japanese media, never once I saw references in movies that come from western cultures].

Also the fist subbed anime I watched didn't even have references so I had to look up for things. but that's a way to start. It is how much someone is willing to put into thing, That's how someone stops to be average.

as for subs being incorrect at the 60% of the time, i think that's a bit too much for a percentage. Translation is a translation you'll have a lose one way or another but not THAT much.
For example there is an idiom that we say in my country "It rains chairs' legs" in english the same thing is said as "It rains cats and dogs" or something both mean the exact same thing [that rains very heavily] unfortunately official translations of an english move for example that would use that idiom, it would sub it as "it rains chairs' legs". fansubs tent to translate those things as they are [at least the good fansubs] and them explain that this idiom means that etc.
I don't even know if I make sense, it is way past my sleeping time ...
In what way shape or form are subs made into another language or dubs added into a movie or drama anyway less accurate? Of course lips will be out of sync, so what? With subs your mainly looking down at subs anyway at least with dubs you can keep your eyes on the picture.

I guess what I'm getting at unless you understand the speaker/s or study the language or can understand it to a moderate extent you'll still lose out on the experience neither dubs or subs are the same as the original. People use subs because its gives a nice generalization of whats being said not because its accurate. So pulling out the card that subs are better than dubs because of accuracy is just bs. If you want accuracy get the CC subs.

Many official subs don't come with cultural highlights, American or Japanese. As for Japanese fansubs of American media I have never seen since all the stuff I watched had usually had official subs.

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Post by Fantastical » Mar 30th, '10, 23:01

SeraEris wrote:
kuro570 wrote: Most people don't like having to read while watching a movie or even drama. It takes away from the experience of viewing the action on screen instead of paying attention to subs. Also your average person who likes movies may not know or really even care about customs and traditions of another country let alone being told how it fits into a joke.
no offense to anyone but why it is only North Americans who wouldn't bother to read subs? every single time I have such debate with someone it is always someone from NA that would go with those excuses...

average person? Since when J-dramas [or even Anime] became things that an average person watches? And why they should be? Doesn't western cultures have good enough arts for average people to look at?
OUCH!!
SO by that logic Avergae people should not watch J dramas or anime because there is enough western stuff for them to watch?

I was wondering how many people have you asked that watch "western stuff" asked the same subs vs dubs?

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Post by Fantastical » Mar 30th, '10, 23:26

Ethlenn wrote:What an ardent discussion. I'm interested in. On the professional basis.
But Eris is right, the whole world has nothing against subtitles, only you, lazy people from Big Apple (and other fruits, hehe, pun intended) and kids can't focus^^
Screw you Professor! :P

The whole thing is about reaching more people. a broader audience.

And now we are attacking people based on their citrus Heritage. I AM A PROUD APPLE!
I AM NOT AFRAID TO CALL MYSELF A FRUIT!
Besides...if you have seen the guys and gals I have been with. I ain't exactly resting on either side of the Kinsey Scale.

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Post by tavon1 » Mar 31st, '10, 01:18

I am from North America and I love to read subs. So put that out and it is offensive because there might be people that are lazy to read subs from other country's to. This guy is just trying to give them another option. So that more people will be interested in looking at dramas. He was never trying to harm anyone. There are many people that dub Asian drama and other types of dramas.

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Post by Fantastical » Mar 31st, '10, 01:42

[quote="kuro570"
Many official subs don't come with cultural highlights, American or Japanese. As for Japanese fansubs of American media I have never seen since all the stuff I watched had usually had official subs.[/quote]

If you wanna give it a chance try Excel Saga as far official. There hasn't been a better production of ANY dvd that I have scene.
You know that angle button on dvds that you barely use? well when u are on the 3 or 4th angle there are asterisks and pop-ups that explain what each oddity mean. It' s actually pretty fun and informative. I think if more people go that in their anime they would buy it and not download licensed copies. Downloading fansubs does has it's merits for big companies. It shows trends of who wants what from what country. yes and even companies like mega upload are going to be giving up the ISP of the people who downloaded what.
Companies are playing for keeps nowadays and are suing a lot more individuals.
I would love for the world to have access to j-pop k-pop Hong Kong Cinema all of the great dramas of the world without the possible consumer and artists suffering.

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Post by axuri » Mar 31st, '10, 01:45

Dubbing for understanding.... not so much of a good idea overall. It kind of kills the essence of the show.
HOWEVER
Dubbing for the sake of pure comedic genius, is well.... genius! Like all those little things you'd wish they said, or would have made things better, less tense, or just plain hilarious.
Anime-wise... DBZ abridged series by team4star is a great example of what I mean.

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Post by Fantastical » Mar 31st, '10, 02:32

axuri wrote:Dubbing for understanding.... not so much of a good idea overall. It kind of kills the essence of the show.
HOWEVER
Dubbing for the sake of pure comedic genius, is well.... genius! Like all those little things you'd wish they said, or would have made things better, less tense, or just plain hilarious.
Anime-wise... DBZ abridged series by team4star is a great example of what I mean.
OMG! THAT IS FUNNY! but it is missing the background music and many of the sound effects.

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Post by lunargen » Mar 31st, '10, 02:48

I won't go through reading the last three pages, but as a reply to the topic:

In subbing communities, and this community as well, dubbed versions are generally frowned upon. So if the official dubs are generally not well received, the more so for fan dubs. If popularity is what your standard is for 'success' in fan dubbing, that's going to be a long shot.

Other things that I imagine would go over poorly: translations will be sacrificed because the dubs would have to fit the actual length of what was said, file sizes and compatibility might be cause problems if done wrong, the number of people doing it (it would just be awkward to watch and listen to something where everyone is voiced by only a couple of people), instrumentals in the actual background would be lost (imagine nodame cantabile dubbed by fans - I'm not sure if they can pull off in a timely manner having to reinsert all that music, because music is half the appeal of that show).

I could go on and on, but the bottom line is, if there ever was fan dubs, it would have had a hard time getting it right. There's a reason why we never, and might never will, see it alongside fansubs.

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Post by Fantastical » Mar 31st, '10, 03:30

lunargen wrote:I won't go through reading the last three pages, but as a reply to the topic:

In subbing communities, and this community as well, dubbed versions are generally frowned upon. So if the official dubs are generally not well received, the more so for fan dubs. If popularity is what your standard is for 'success' in fan dubbing, that's going to be a long shot.

Other things that I imagine would go over poorly: translations will be sacrificed because the dubs would have to fit the actual length of what was said, file sizes and compatibility might be cause problems if done wrong, the number of people doing it (it would just be awkward to watch and listen to something where everyone is voiced by only a couple of people), instrumentals in the actual background would be lost (imagine nodame cantabile dubbed by fans - I'm not sure if they can pull off in a timely manner having to reinsert all that music, because music is half the appeal of that show).
I could go on and on, but the bottom line is, if there ever was fan dubs, it would have had a hard time getting it right. There's a reason why we never, and might never will, see it alongside fansubs.
That's a good point about the music. I wonder how other tv shows do it.
I know they lay down tracks and different mics. that way you can isolate the microphone and work on the timing. I wonder ho does Studio Ghibli do it? sure they do timing and lay down the track for each person one or two at a time depending on the scene.
Obviously it couldn't have the same release time as a fansub.
with fansubs there is a timer, encoder, translator and maybe somebody else? I don't know. and you are right...a show like nodame cantababile would be difficult but if somebody bought the background music and lay down the tracks and vocals.

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Post by SeraEris » Mar 31st, '10, 07:39

bah!! busy morning, I have so much to reply!!

first of I want to say Why I dislike DUB with such passion. It actually comes from the way I grew up, and how dubs were treated here.
in my country Dub are being made for either kids' animated programs or for things that only old people, or low educated or uneducated people[which is the majority of old people who they simply can't read]. That's how dubs are treated here. And that's where I am staying with the dubs as well. In states you Dub everything, so it is easier for you to accept it as something common and nice. You grew up with dubs so you think of them way highly than I do.
Fantastical wrote:I was wondering how many people have you asked that watch "western stuff" asked the same subs vs dubs?
actually a lot. The Greeks who watch Japanese stuff are very very few. and since there is no movie production now a days as it used to, and the movies that come out right now do not qualify as good, Greeks for years are watching foreign movies [mostly Hollywood, and French cinema] I know for sure that NOT a SINGLE one of them would ever think of a dub version of these movies, and in the mare thought of a dub they rant the way I did. [with the exception of few who watch cartoon movies Dub only because their favorite actor does the dubbing]
I have also had that conversation with a German friend of mine, who was telling me how he hated Dubs and the fact that he always turn on the original audio and subs[if needed] to watch an American Tv series for example. in a country where they Dub everything!
I also have another example:
One of the guys in Japanese class bought the greek version of Naruto manga, and he said to us how he threw it away the moment he saw the phrase "φάε σκατά Καραγκιόζη" [fae skata karagiozi] which means "eat **** Karagiozi" Karagiozis is a a very old traditional character of Shadow theater in Greece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karagiozis
Image
within the years this character's name had turned into a swearing word. [to my displeasure] but it is used mostly from low educated people who speak only slang. so seeing Naruto calling his enemy "Karagiozi" was a great turn off, I would actually burn that manga if it was mine! because even though I understood completely what Naruto wanted to say, it just became so....greek that disgusted me.

---
Fantastical wrote:I am gonna take a mighty leap and say that you have a proficiency for Asian culture.
I don't know you and I don't know of any measuring device or scale to determine such a thing.
I don't know where that came from, and I don't really get what you are trying to say. But I never claimed to be an expert of any culture...

---

all in all I do agree with you that for something like Dubbing [even though I disagree with the reason of why] there should be a tremendous job for Dub to even be acceptable.

--

as for Utada I first heard of her at the Opening of Last Friends Drama, and searched about her. It doesn't matter what makes you come into a fandom but the how much are you willing to find about the fandom.

--
Fantastical wrote:SO by that logic Avergae people should not watch J dramas or anime because there is enough western stuff for them to watch?

I didn't mean such thing, I might think of myself as a not an average person, because of the things I enjoy, which differ[a Lot] from what an average everyday person does.
that realization comes from the reactions I get everytime my cellphone rings or when I say that I attend japanese classes, or that I watch J-dramas, anime, Takarazuka. 90% of time the reaction is a drop of a jaw. [I get the same reaction when I tell people that I do not listening greek music, or do not know a greek celebrity] that's what stops making me average.

--
kuro570 wrote:In what way shape or form are subs made into another language or dubs added into a movie or drama anyway less accurate?
I don't know how else to explain this better, but I'll try one more time.
The Sub loses on the translation part.
The Dub loses on the translation, loses from the fixing of the dialogue to fit the mouth movement, and the audio is not original.
Think about the original audio as a song. would someone enjoy the same, a song in its original language or a in the language they speak? think about how much bitching there is around about song Covers, especially when they are made poorly.

now you do the math in which you lose more.
--
kuro570 wrote:I guess what I'm getting at unless you understand the speaker/s or study the language or can understand it to a moderate extent you'll still lose out on the experience neither dubs or subs are the same as the original. People use subs because its gives a nice generalization of whats being said not because its accurate.
as I said in the previous post, you are right about subs Not being accurate. and I do agree that as long as you don't have a knowledge in the language you sure lose. but as I explained earlier, I [personally] see the loss to be way bigger with a dub.

I think this post here actually gives away where I am staying, and why I rant about dub.
[/quote]

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Post by Ethlenn » Mar 31st, '10, 07:45

Why no one understands my jokes... sniff... Maybe they are all that bad?? Hm, that's the case...

Why so serious?
You take this innocent topic to the level of discussion like "what was before the Big Bang". (well the answer is simple: ME).
To close my presence here: subbing-well, yes, dubbing-no.
Learn languages, hehe :D

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