veritati wrote:1. When you say illegal aliens pay taxes, which taxes do you mean? If you want to say sales tax, then I agree since there is no way around that. But the important income tax and other taxes they do not pay. For one, you need to have a SS# to pay those taxes and illegal aliens do not have it. And since they are illegals, they will not "surface" themselves for fear of detection and deportation so it's ridiculous to say that they willingly pay taxes. Also, employers are required to pay taxes as well, but if they hire illegal aliens they can avoid that. So on two fronts, illegal aliens are not contributing to the economy/society. In other words, they are not paying their share but can use all the resources and infrustructures.
If you want to pay tax and don't have a SS# you can get a tax number from the the IRS. But this is quite old, perhaps they have removed this?
About 366,000 returns were filed using individual taxpayer identification numbers in 2001, according to IRS data from that year, the most recent information available. People with the tax numbers reported wages of almost $7 billion and paid almost $305 million in taxes, according to the IRS.
veritati wrote:2. Do you realize how big and long America's border is? America is not letting them enter. It's just that it's nearly imposible to guard thousands of miles of open borders. And this is land and sea. So think about it. I am sure you can't even patrol the border around your own house 24/7 without someone able to get into your house. So because America can't guard its border, does that give anyone a legal right to sneak in?
Of course I'm not saying USA should guard every inch of the borders, which would be impossible. My point was that the government has really done anything activly to control the illegal immigrants. They are around 9 million or so probably more, if the government really cared and saw it as a big problem they wouldn't have let that group get so big. Of course illegal immigrants will always exists but with a more effective policy/police/whatever their numbers wouldn't be so large.
veritati wrote:3. You say that illegal immigration is not an important issue, but it is very important. The economy is not doing so well and one of the reasons affecting it is illegal aliens. They take money out of the economy and not contributing to it. We can go deeper into this but that'd be a long discussion.
There are other far more important causes for the decline in economy China, Iraq etc. Illegal aliens is just a drop in an ocean of trends. And yea, this is a long discussion by it self, so let's just leave at that.
veritati wrote:a. They ARE taking jobs no matter how you justify it. It's a fact, and please see my previous post on page 6 for an explanation.
Well, you are ignoring the fact that we, especially in USA, are living in a class society. Even if you would remove the illegal aliens and give their jobs to the poorer classes that doesn't mean that the payment for those jobs would rise. Removing a group of people doesn't erradicate the class society, the poor would still be poor.
veritati wrote:b. They ARE taking from the system. When you use resources and infrustructures without paying for it, it's taking or stealing. Legal immigration is good, but illegal immigration only takes away; they do NOT generate anything for the overall economy. One thing you fail to realize is that most illegals make money and then send back to their countries to support their families. That's taking money out of the US economy.
Simply working contributes to society, and some of them do pay tax. But I agree a lot of people send their money over seas but I hardly belive that that sum has a significant effect on the massive economy of America.
veritati wrote:c. They are illegal. What circular argument? It's straight and to the point in any language. This is a legal and not a moral dicussion. There is no circular logic here. You should look up what "illegal" means.
Yup that's why I said it was the only valid point I've seen so far.
However I did point out as a side note that a law cannot justify itself, ie laws are not always right that's why they get changed, removed or added. But this is more of a philosophical discussion.
veritati wrote:My first post on page 6 was a direct response to the question by the OP without reading anyone else's views. But I did go back and read each and every post and have written down some thoughts which I will share in a later post. I will go further in details then.
I'll make sure to read it.
And as a note, because I feel this got a little side tracked. What I was arguing for is amnesty for the illegals (with restrictions, not criminals etc..) simply because the way (rather lack of) USA has handled the issue over the past decade.