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what in Japanese Culture U dont like?

Talk about the culture and entertainment from Nihon.
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Horizon
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Post by Horizon » Jun 22nd, '06, 16:44

jellybean wrote:The schoolgirl fetish is disturbing.
It's not disturbing. I actually find it one of the things I like about japan. They're more true to themselves that way. Rather than bottling it up I think it is better to get it out there in the open. Whenever people go "that's sick" or something I always think "what the hell are they on about?". Girls wouldn't have periods at 12 if they couldn't become attractive until 18, stop lieing to yourself and trying to look like you somehow have higher morals.

Well with the age of consent being 16 here, and from what I've seen the schoolgirl fetish being mainly for highschool girls I don't see it really as a fetish...just a preference for younger girls :alcoholic:

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Post by nikochanr3 » Jun 22nd, '06, 16:45

jellybean wrote:I have never been to Japan but according to what I hear - Japan are drilled into thinking they are the superior race :unsure: ? Also my brother's friend is currently on the JET program in a small village in Japan and his 'white' friends were turned away from a hotel they were planning on staying in.

But yeah - I haven't been there myself therefore that's only secondary information.

I am finding this thread really informative actually - there isn't incessant bashing as there usually is with such threads.

The schoolgirl fetish is disturbing.
ive never been turned away from anything, except some clubs. never a hotel, never a restaurant, never anything. i spend time in small places too.....and its never been an issue. also, people i meet are usually impressed im from the US....the JAPAN ARE DRILLED THEY ARE THE SUPERIOR RACE is an over the top statement.

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Post by goygakgoy » Jun 22nd, '06, 19:41

I don't like how older Japanese women act like little girls. I love the kawaii craze..but it gotta stop somewhere.

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Post by Néa Vanille » Jun 22nd, '06, 20:28

Horizon wrote:
jellybean wrote:The schoolgirl fetish is disturbing.
It's not disturbing. I actually find it one of the things I like about japan. They're more true to themselves that way. Rather than bottling it up I think it is better to get it out there in the open. Whenever people go "that's sick" or something I always think "what the hell are they on about?". Girls wouldn't have periods at 12 if they couldn't become attractive until 18, stop lieing to yourself and trying to look like you somehow have higher morals.

Well with the age of consent being 16 here, and from what I've seen the schoolgirl fetish being mainly for highschool girls I don't see it really as a fetish...just a preference for younger girls :alcoholic:
It's very disturbing.

Rather than just finding the body of young girls desirable, what seems to be a major factor with the lolita complex in Japan is the innocence and the not-yet-awakened sexuality. While 12-year-old girls do get their periods, I'm fully convinced that it isn't until 16-18 that MOST girls are psychologically ready to have sex with their boyfriends - and I'm also convinced it isn't healthy to ANY young woman to be exploited as a sex symbol or star in pornos until they are mature enough to deal with it. Add to the mix that Japanese girls tend to be psychologically 'younger' than Western girls as well (while Western girls are told to grow up fast, I've been told by many Japanese girls that they never want to get any older - even when they are as young as 15 or 16!) it becomes a rather disturbing mix. Instead of just being about young, healthy, firm bodies, Japanese obsession with young women is about tainting and destroying innocence.

You said you like Japan for its fascination with school girls? Does that also mean you think them prostituting themselves for Armani and Gucci is good...? As long as the fascination ended with photo books and porno movies, I myself wouldn't find it all that disturbing - but as it is, it's a multi-million dollar industry involving half-children trapped by capitalism selling their bodies and panties to men who are looking for lost youth.

In Japan, children's manga for young girls aged 7-10 sell well to middle-aged men. I don't think all of them use these manga to masturbate to, but rather because they love the innocence and ignorance of these children on a borderline-perverted level.

Another reason why this tendency is disturbing is because I believe it is unhealthy for a society as a whole that is growing older and older with each passing year such as Japan steadily is. Japan is one of the 'oldest' nations already and I personally wonder how all the 20-50 year-old-women who FAR FAR outnumber the teenaged ones feel about this ridiculous tendency that is bound to make them feel less attractive and desirable than they really are. It's not very smart for a nation with people that old to be having a youth fetish - few can profit from it. The youth fetish also drives middle-aged men to purchase sex with underage girls trying to re-establish their youth and to feel somewhat attractive and masculine again. Certainly, this hints at deeper problems of society than I care to get into.

I think Japan - much like the rest of the world - should feel more positive about aging.

Whew, reading my post, it really seems like I hate Japan. :lol I don't, though. I just have a real passion for both the good and the bad of this fascinating country.

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Post by afroken » Jun 22nd, '06, 20:41

Néa Vanille, I don't think it sounds like you hate Japan and I totally think you're right with what you have said.

It's f***ing GROSS.

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Post by Romance » Jun 22nd, '06, 20:53

lol, like the blokes here in the states dont have fetish for young girls, oh im so tired of this **** hypocrisy, you make jesus cry

And bothered with prositution and points at japan? HAHAHAH, man you should really go out on your own streets in night and see all these creepy creeps that buy young girls, in LA for example. I even found a whole magazine for prostitutes in the L.A area in a phone booth, it was like on 100 pages with thousand small pictures and a phone numbers

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Post by afroken » Jun 22nd, '06, 21:06

Romance wrote:lol, like the blokes here in the states dont have fetish for young girls, oh im so tired of this **** hypocrisy, you make jesus cry

And bothered with prositution and points at japan? HAHAHAH, man you should really go out on your own streets in night and see all these creepy creeps that buy young girls, in LA for example. I even found a whole magazine for prostitutes in the L.A area in a phone booth, it was like on 100 pages with thousand small pictures and a phone numbers
That's also **** gross.

But saying jesus cries just sounds stupid and emo.

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Post by jellybean » Jun 22nd, '06, 21:09

Horizon wrote:
jellybean wrote:The schoolgirl fetish is disturbing.
It's not disturbing. I actually find it one of the things I like about japan. They're more true to themselves that way. Rather than bottling it up I think it is better to get it out there in the open. Whenever people go "that's sick" or something I always think "what the hell are they on about?". Girls wouldn't have periods at 12 if they couldn't become attractive until 18, stop lieing to yourself and trying to look like you somehow have higher morals.

Well with the age of consent being 16 here, and from what I've seen the schoolgirl fetish being mainly for highschool girls I don't see it really as a fetish...just a preference for younger girls :alcoholic:
- first of all I am a girl myself - what makes you think I would consent to this at all. My point wasn't meant to translate as morally superior - it was simply an opinion which is I found it disturbing. Note my use of words.

I think this whole Lolita complex is just disturbing and worrying. That's subjective - I'm not saying that's the be all end all - simply a point of view. It's wrong in every country - and it will carry on in every country. The fact that Japan is so open about is wrong - do you think them being open about it makes the situation better - hence the gropers/child prostitutes..for what - to buy designer clothing? The fact that there is a mutual action from both the girl and the 'rich businessman' is just plain disgusting.

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Post by Romance » Jun 22nd, '06, 21:15

"But saying jesus cries just sounds stupid and emo."

Omg plz

"I think this whole Lolita complex is just disturbing and worrying. That's subjective - I'm not saying that's the be all end all - simply a point of view. It's wrong in every country - and it will carry on in every country. The fact that Japan is so open about is wrong - do you think them being open about it makes the situation better - hence the gropers/child prostitutes..for what - to buy designer clothing? The fact that there is a mutual action from both the girl and the 'rich businessman' is just plain disgusting."

Its nothing new that old buisness men buy young girls here in the western world aswell. Japan might get attention recenlty on that subject, but its just the same here. why do you still keep insisting that japan is sosososososossos sick? escaping your own reality?

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Post by Littleangel91356 » Jun 22nd, '06, 21:17

You're right Jellybean, honestly I hate this lolita complex and high school things. Honestly, cause of this, many crimes occur like high school students prositute themselves to middle age men and getting money and buying brands. I also hate the AV idols, people who use their body for money and Japan's like..really big on the porn industry and it's disturbing to me.

Another thing, I dislike how they don't fully express themselves and just backstab you in the toilet's or with their friends cause they can't 'upfront' their feelings to people and they don't accept opiniated people and I wish they do in a way...and I hate their system of 'copying' others and can't do things on their own and do things by groups, for example: bullying. The people who start it is actually really cowardly so they can't do it by themselves. That comes with many circumstances...I wish they can kinda accept indiviuality, not only just group agreement.

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Post by pokute » Jun 22nd, '06, 21:18

This is very inspiring, all this honesty and being true to your convictions and stuff... Tonight when I'm driving home and somebody cuts me off on the freeway, I'm gonna just, you know, go with my feelings and blow them right off the road! I wanna see the look of fear on someone's face at the moment they realise "this is it, I'm screwed". Kinda like the look on the face of a 12 year old girl when you get her into a corner, right Horizon? Tasty... Tasty...

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Post by Romance » Jun 22nd, '06, 21:21

"You're right Jellybean, honestly I hate this lolita complex and high school things. Honestly, cause of this, many crimes occur like high school students prositute themselves to middle age men and getting money and buying brands. I also hate the AV idols, people who use their body for money and Japan's like..really big on the porn industry and it's disturbing to me. "

Oh im bored tonight, again, high school prostitues is nothing new and since when do not porn stars sell their bodies for money? well what to think of porn is something personal but the american industry is the biggest on the planet. please dont behave like clowns

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Post by Mythrel » Jun 22nd, '06, 21:36

wow... what the hell am I really reading this? I have nothing against porn but high school girls selling their bodies? That is sick and I will always think that is sick. I knew a girl who at 14 was giving herself to 40 year olds. I found it extremely disturbing and I let her know every single time she tried to tell me a story. I don't care what country you are from it is discusting and if that really gets you on I don't care for you as a human being at all. Guess what happened when she turned 18, all these flings she had went on to new women and left her hellaconfused. She was depressed for months and had a hard time actually keeping a boyfriend because she doesn't know how dating is really suppose to be. She moves way to quick in relationships which then scares them off. I feel bad for her she is almost 20 now and is still struggling with her love life and I blame those assholes for it. :cussing:

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Post by pickle9000 » Jun 22nd, '06, 21:55

Interesting posts, I have never been to Japan nor do I have any close friends that are Japanese.

I do find the culture interesting. When it comes to the schoolgirl fetish, It's not uncommon to find many boys (not men) within screaming distance of our local Catholic Girls School. And they do seem to be popular marching down the road. I don't think that is far from normal in any culture.

I recently watched "Forbidden Love" and thought "holy crap! this would never make it on the air here". I liked the series, even though the subject matter was borderline. To be honest I like to see stuff that is tortured and the Japanese have a knack for it.

Last year I watched an anime ova on incest. I wish I could remember the name, anyway talk about disturbing. No nudity but some kissing (brother sister twin thing). Now I don't agree with the subject matter and it was difficult to watch but I did watch. I didn't like the way it ended but the fact that it a program like that could be made says a great deal about the culture. They don't hide, and are not as politcally correct as North America. That is a good thing.

Basically, I am for disturbing as long as it does not break any laws.

pickle

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Post by cgozun » Jun 22nd, '06, 21:57

Romance wrote:lol, like the blokes here in the states dont have fetish for young girls, oh im so tired of this **** hypocrisy, you make jesus cry

And bothered with prositution and points at japan? HAHAHAH, man you should really go out on your own streets in night and see all these creepy creeps that buy young girls, in LA for example. I even found a whole magazine for prostitutes in the L.A area in a phone booth, it was like on 100 pages with thousand small pictures and a phone numbers
The difference is, if you talk about this in Japan, it's taboo. Pedophilia is accepted and encouraged in Japan. The age of consent in Japan is 13. This is compounded by the fact that the average 13 year old look a lot younger than other nationalities of the same age.
Born on May 15, 1996, Mizuki still hasn’t reached double figures. But her sales figures are already impressive. Her photo collection went on sale in March, with the initial print run set at 6,000 copies. It has already gone into a second printing and topped 10,000 copies, the standard for a best seller in Japan. What’s more, hits on her talent agency’s website have skyrocketed since the 9-year-old appeared on the scene.

Mizuki’s photo collection is little more than pedophilia. She appears clad in all sorts of garments, the vast majority of them scanty, and the shots cater to the traditional sick tastes of perverts, with the little girl decked out in her school uniform, PE bloomers and swimsuit — all staples for child cheesecake fans in Japan.
http://www.imouto.tv/ this does not bother you? If USA has this form of perversion, I must have been living in a bubble.

I don't quite know what to say about this one.
"Teenage girls sell their used panties and sweat, which men and teenage boys purchase through vending machines."

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Post by OvertheRainbow » Jun 22nd, '06, 22:09

Romance wrote:
Its nothing new that old buisness men buy young girls here in the western world aswell. Japan might get attention recenlty on that subject, but its just the same here. why do you still keep insisting that japan is sosososososossos sick? escaping your own reality?
Well, this is a discussion about what people don't like about Japan's culture not what they don't like about Western culture. The peson might not like young girls selling their bodies in general but since its a forum about Japan, they have to focus on the issue of young girls selling their bodies in Japan or they'd be off topic.

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Post by Romance » Jun 22nd, '06, 22:12

the view of sex and all that concerns is very open in japan, thats why you can see stuff like that in the link, sure its Pedophilical stuff in western eyes and compared to our standards, but do never mix our standards with japanese, two totally views on everything and on life. only because you find something strange in the japanese culture, well, nothing says you the correct one. do you get me? but i agree, too young people to do such things, but exists here aswell, but behind your puffy and fluffy reality.

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Post by Romance » Jun 22nd, '06, 22:16

OvertheRainbow wrote:
Romance wrote:
Its nothing new that old buisness men buy young girls here in the western world aswell. Japan might get attention recenlty on that subject, but its just the same here. why do you still keep insisting that japan is sosososososossos sick? escaping your own reality?
Well, this is a discussion about what people don't like about Japan's culture not what they don't like about Western culture. The peson might not like young girls selling their bodies in general but since its a forum about Japan, they have to focus on the issue of young girls selling their bodies in Japan or they'd be off topic.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

the thing is that it sounded so funny when they pointed out and sounded so serious like it was something special for japan. Sorry then :whistling:

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Post by Néa Vanille » Jun 22nd, '06, 22:20

Our view on age and sexuality is correct and the Japanese view is wrong.

Because the Japanese view is all about violating something that is innocent that would not want to be tainted (those 9-year-old girls, especially - what are her parents thinking??) and also because we humans are not biologically programmed to be attracted to children - hence, it is a perversion.

A society actively promoting a perversion is perverted.

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Post by Littleangel91356 » Jun 22nd, '06, 22:21

Well I was talking about japan, not about US. US is a different story and that should be discussed somewhere else. I just hate people selling their bodies for money, especially that the body is not something to be used in that way.

Plus, wth...why are people interested in little kids like 11? That's pretty disturbing..they are still kids...and I can't believe why their parents are letting them do this. It's unbelivable...I can say their parents are crazy also.

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Post by cgozun » Jun 22nd, '06, 22:23

Romance wrote:the view of sex and all that concerns is very open in japan, thats why you can see stuff like that in the link, sure its Pedophilical stuff in western eyes and compared to our standards, but do never mix our standards with japanese, two totally views on everything and on life. only because you find something strange in the japanese culture, well, nothing says you the correct one. do you get me? but i agree, too young people to do such things, but exists here aswell, but behind your puffy and fluffy reality.
Nobody here is arguing which country is better or worse. If you read the topic, it clearly states what in Japanese Culture U dont like? I think you are arguing the wrong premise. You can live in Japan and still post your dislikes. I don't understand why you brought up a comparison with another country.

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Post by Néa Vanille » Jun 22nd, '06, 22:25

I also do not like prostitution in general, mainly because, while I like money, I do not think it should be the all-consuming, all-encompassing power in this world - meaning, there should be things that can't be bought with it. I'm romantic enough to believe sex should be one of those things. I also hate the idea of men thinking they can own a woman's body for money, whether it's for 10$ from a crack whore or 1.000$ for an orgy in Soap Land.

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Post by Romance » Jun 22nd, '06, 22:43

Néa Vanille wrote:Our view on age and sexuality is correct and the Japanese view is wrong.

Because the Japanese view is all about violating something that is innocent that would not want to be tainted (those 9-year-old girls, especially - what are her parents thinking??) and also because we humans are not biologically programmed to be attracted to children - hence, it is a perversion.

A society actively promoting a perversion is perverted.
Please. So many flaws. What view? why do you feel correct when there are just as many pedophiles here as in japan? What makes you the better ones, because you hide it at day and when you come home you masturbate to your child pornograpy videos? What says the americans are the correct ones? Noone, japanese are just as correct. And i said i also think its wrong for such young people do to such things, just as i think its wrong for the kids that do it here but underground.

whatever people say its a fact that there are just as many pedophiles in japan as in other countries. Public or not, there are just as many who are turned on by kids. But i guess it justifies it in your eyes, to abuse children, its ok as far as noone knows!!!!11!!!!

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Post by Néa Vanille » Jun 22nd, '06, 22:51

It's not about whether it happens or not, it's about society. If something like this was published in America, I'd bet you my tits it wouldn't be a day until there would be a huge uproar and it would be banned in no time. But the Japanese? They not only allow it, it seems they think there's nothing wrong with it.

Paedophiles deserve to feel guilty for what they are doing - they do NOT deserve to live in a society that openly accepts them and allows them to live out their abnormal tendencies in all openness - making them think they are normal and are free to parade their offensive preferences in the streets.

Yes, a society in which paedophiles are made to feel ashamed of themselves and have them jerk off quietly in their rooms, knowing what they are doing is abnormal and socially unacceptable, is indeed better.

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Post by Horizon » Jun 23rd, '06, 10:24

@Néa Vanille, You bring up a fairly good point but...
Néa Vanille wrote:Rather than just finding the body of young girls desirable, what seems to be a major factor with the lolita complex in Japan is the innocence and the not-yet-awakened sexuality.
I don't know what you're getting at. From a guy's point of view the lolita complex is quite understandable. It's not that hard to understand why guys would prefer innocent girls with no experience over girls with tons of experience. If the guys were in the western world then yeah maybe I'll find it a bit disturbing but only because the western world is so accepting of casual sex and slutty(even though it's not considered slutty in the west because it's the norm) behaviour. In a society as fucked up as Japan, where so many women have attitude and mental problems among many others, I can understand why guys would see younger inexperienced girls as heaven.
Néa Vanille wrote:You said you like Japan for its fascination with school girls? Does that also mean you think them prostituting themselves for Armani and Gucci is good...?
This is rather a parenting problem. Japanese guys are no different than guys from anywhere else and they react the way guys do. The only difference in Japan is on the girls part. I think it's because of shoddy, neglectful parenting and a resultant disgraceful lack of respect towards them from their children.
Néa Vanille wrote:In Japan, children's manga for young girls aged 7-10 sell well to middle-aged men. I don't think all of them use these manga to masturbate to, but rather because they love the innocence and ignorance of these children on a borderline-perverted level.
This is totally baseless, I really can't even begin to describe how ignorant and wrong that sounds. "manga for young girls ages 7-10" doesn't mean anything. These "middle-aged men" you speak of are what is called "people who enjoy manga". Shoujo(manga alledgedly aimed at young girls) is enjoyed by people of all ages, I know I enjoy it. And btw Shoujo is about as innocent as a daytime soap opera.

And the main issue here is you guys using the word disgusting. It just makes you sound ignorant and rather stupid(no offence). Is it so hard to believe that some people, somewhere else in the world actually have different preferences and morals than you? Is it right to condemn someone just because they have different values? I myself have different morals and opinions than many people I know, Is it then right for me to push my morals and Ideals onto them and then proceed to measure and judge them? I know the only people I would ever push my morals and ideals on are my children.

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Post by smallville4ever » Jun 23rd, '06, 10:49

im a japanese but i dont like my country
kinda like before i was born im super anti japanese
but i like their drama

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Post by Néa Vanille » Jun 23rd, '06, 13:20

Horizon wrote:@Néa Vanille, You bring up a fairly good point but...

I don't know what you're getting at. From a guy's point of view the lolita complex is quite understandable. It's not that hard to understand why guys would prefer innocent girls with no experience over girls with tons of experience. If the guys were in the western world then yeah maybe I'll find it a bit disturbing but only because the western world is so accepting of casual sex and slutty(even though it's not considered slutty in the west because it's the norm) behaviour. In a society as fucked up as Japan, where so many women have attitude and mental problems among many others, I can understand why guys would see younger inexperienced girls as heaven.
Easy.
Enjoying innocence = good. Who doesn't feel delighted by children?
Wanting to taint and destroy innocence is a completely different matter, though. If you have seen many Japanese porno videos (which I assume you have, as a guy) you will have noticed that the vast majority of them is about some guy interviewing a girl, who has to re-establish again and again in the conversation that she is a virgin, only to then be borderline-raped under a wail of agony.

It's about the desire to violate these girl's sanity, because as educated the average Japanese is, most of them are probably aware of the severe mental damages the actions they are watching would cause if they weren't acted out. And only wait until the 9-year-old girl realises years later what those nice uncles were really doing with her pictures...

It also implies that a woman is better kept stupid, which totally goes against the Western morals of emancipation and equality between partners. I'm not sure whether you agree with emancipation but surely you see how this is disgusting to those who do.
Horizon wrote: This is rather a parenting problem. Japanese guys are no different than guys from anywhere else and they react the way guys do. The only difference in Japan is on the girls part. I think it's because of shoddy, neglectful parenting and a resultant disgraceful lack of respect towards them from their children.
I don't think Japanese guys are the same as guys from everywhere else - that would be like saying Japanese girls are like girls from everywhere else, which you probably wouldn't agree with and neither do I.

Japanese guys are different because their CULTURE and SOCIETY is different from ours. While ours (American and European) is rather youth-centric as well, we do not have the same craze going on there as they do, and the idols we worship are usually a good deal older than the girls Japanese boys are taught to fawn over from since they were toddlers. They ARE different because the way their surroundings deal with youth is totally different from ours. It's been researched time and time again that what we see presented as desirable on print and TV is what we grow to desire ourselves to some degree - of course, we all seem to have an inborn biological attraction (men being programmed to be attracted to fertile women with feminine curves and youthful faces for evolution's sake) but I firmly believe that what we see others desiring has a big influence on what we feel we should want.

Hence, a society that accepts paedophilia can only grow to produce more paedophiles over time. Surely you agree that isn't very healthy for a society or a country?

It's rather disturbing to me to hear you say that Japanese business men purchasing sex and exploiting innocence are not to blame, but the teenage girls and their incompetent parents.

Most scholars on Japan would say that Japanese parents drill their children more than Western parents do - which can, I agree, often results in their teenage daughters rebelling. I don't think that Japanese parents are neglectful, though - after all, it is STILL very much the norm in Japan for the mother to devote herself entirely to her children, which would surely mean they aren't neglecting and abandoning them in any way. They are still doing things wrong, though, obviously. As I said, I think they generally tend to want to control their children's life too much, so of course they are also to blame for the situation. I actually went on about Japanese parents being possessive in an earlier post.

However, these men are the worst and the most wrong for taking advantage of these girls who are NOT MENTALLY READY to be purchased for sex fully knowing what damage they are causing . Any psychologist would agree that the vast majority of teenage girls would be far from being able to get out of prostitution with their sanity intact.

For the prostitution thing, I blame the following: youth-obsessed society that should SERIOUSLY start to accept age (this should be a human right), a superificial, capitalist society that tells girls all they need to be happy is Chanel and Gucci, stupid girls attracted by "easy money" and parents who don't give their children enough freedom.
Horizon wrote: This is totally baseless, I really can't even begin to describe how ignorant and wrong that sounds. "manga for young girls ages 7-10" doesn't mean anything. These "middle-aged men" you speak of are what is called "people who enjoy manga". Shoujo(manga alledgedly aimed at young girls) is enjoyed by people of all ages, I know I enjoy it. And btw Shoujo is about as innocent as a daytime soap opera.
I conclude you have never heard of the word "lolikon."

It is a known, recognised subgenre of manga much like shoujo is - a popular example of which is a manga called "Strawberry and Marshmellows" (or something close) which has recently been published in Germany and should probably be available elsewhere as well. It portrays the lives of kindergarten to junior high school girls, and I happen to have read a paper which said that said genre of manga (OFFICIALLY targeted at elementary school girls) sold to almost as many middle-aged men as it did to their target group.

As it said, it's not really perverted per say, because enjoying children because they are cute and innocent is more than all right. However, it seems strange to me that it isn't women or future mothers buying these type of manga, but middle-aged men - and I bet you, while most of them will have fatherly feelings for these girls, a lot of them won't.

I'm not saying "ban those mangas!" I actually think they are okay - after all, it's not harming anybody! Real girls aren't photographed or harmed or mentally abused and these men get their rocks off without making it anyone's business. It's still disgusting morally, but far preferable to pictures of real children.

I only brought it up as an example of Japanese men's twisted psyche. I doubt such manga would have success among American or European men.
Horizon wrote: And the main issue here is you guys using the word disgusting. It just makes you sound ignorant and rather stupid(no offence). Is it so hard to believe that some people, somewhere else in the world actually have different preferences and morals than you? Is it right to condemn someone just because they have different values? I myself have different morals and opinions than many people I know, Is it then right for me to push my morals and Ideals onto them and then proceed to measure and judge them? I know the only people I would ever push my morals and ideals on are my children.
That's a tricky one because now we're getting into philosophy and into a belief-based argument. They can't be lost or won, so I'll just tell you what I think about it.

First of all, though, I think it's not stupid at all. People who actually have an opinion tend to be smarter than your average opinionless hick, but I feel this argument is too big to be carried out fully here. It included the questions whether there is such a thing as good and evil, and if yes, how you can define good and evil or whether morals are good and needed or useless waste of modern society.

Basically, I support the belief that there IS such a thing as evil in this world - and evil, to me, is, among other things, purposefully damaging another person's mind for one's own twisted pleasure which I believe teenage prostitution to be. It's a rather simple concept that people want to stay away from what they perceive to be evil - most people would condemn a mass murderer or a rapist because they violate most people's moral codexes to the extreme. I perceive Japanese business-men purchasing sex with 14-17 year-old-girls to be a very strong blow to my firmly established moral codex as well, so naturally they wouldn't be my preferred friends.

Most people have a tolerance range as far as violations against their codexes are concerned, so it isn't quite as bad as you make it out to be. I am actually friends with a few very religious people with very different values and my best friend is a raging supporter of high-end capitalism. I tolerate it and occassionally find it even interesting and helpful in shaping my own ideas.

I also personally believe a moral codex is important for guiding you through your life as well as that judging other people is necessary in order to create your own codex and personality. If you choose to argue against that, though, there's not much I can say - either you believe in it or you don't. I believe people have a right to a moral code and to condemn things that drastically violates said codex. They have "the right to ignorance", if you will. I can see why you wouldn't think so, though and respect your beliefs.



Because of all this negativity in my posts which I'm not usually a fan of, I'll mention a few things I love about Japan (to recover from bitching, in a way. :lol ) I love Japanese (or Asian, rather) architecture and traditional costumes. I find Shintoism to be very elegant and interesting. I love Japanese acceptance of femininity in men (which the West sorely lacks), I love Japanese politeness whenever it isn't confusing me. I love Murakami Haruki. I love drama, naturally, for its excellent scores of music, its beautiful actors and actresses and its compelling plots taken from nearly all aspects of life.

I LOVE Playstation, Nintendo, Final Fantasy and Resident Evil. Only the Japanese can create Role-Playing-Games I can lose myself in!

Whew. Now I feel better.

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Post by nikochanr3 » Jun 23rd, '06, 13:42

please realize though that not all japanese men partake in this, i have a bunch of friends in japan to whom the schoolgirl thing is as weird to them as it is to us. its a social problem in general, because it allows those people with those issues to have them and not be ostracized in total. but it is a problem. there was a 13 year old bikini model (in a small bikini) on the cover of a major magazine last year with the headline "SHES ONLY 13" or something like that. thats problematic to me. :goggle:

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Post by Néa Vanille » Jun 23rd, '06, 13:50

I know they're not all like that, of course - that's why I keep complaining about a "tendency" and their society.

I've dated young Japanese men and the one I dated the most and even considered to marry told me he thought I was too child-like and that I should mature.

Ironic world, ne? :mrgreen:

I'm now dating a Korean guy who thinks I'm rational and mature, but complains about my spontaneous fits of childish behaviour such as throwing pillows at him. :wub:

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Post by nikochanr3 » Jun 23rd, '06, 14:04

Néa Vanille wrote:I know they're not all like that, of course - that's why I keep complaining about a "tendency" and their society.

I've dated young Japanese men and the one I dated the most and even considered to marry told me he thought I was too child-like and that I should mature.

Ironic world, ne? :mrgreen:

I'm now dating a Korean guy who thinks I'm rational and mature, but complains about my spontaneous fits of childish behaviour such as throwing pillows at him. :wub:
:whistling: Try to only throw pillows at him at structured times in a mature way.

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Post by jellybean » Jun 23rd, '06, 17:59

I remember in Hana Yori Dango when the main character got tricked into a situation where they were going to coerce her into making a snuff movie.

If that was me I'd be traumatised for life - but it didn't seem so in the drama. OK drama is not real...so let me put it another way...
I'd expect it to be on some gritty soap opera like Miami Vice or CSI (well I find it gritty) ..not on a teenage drama :D.

Debate's over...but since when was I denying that paedophilia happens in every country...but yeah debate's over.

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Post by albertoavena » Jun 24th, '06, 00:27

hmmm...after reading some of these "complains" or "dislikes", I think I agree with what nikochanr3 said a few pages back. It seems that many people here are bashing Japan in a harsh way, although many have explanations to them. I wrote something down earlier but I still think Japan is a great country. The good things definetly outweigh the bad for me. I don't know, maybe it's just me.

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Post by Néa Vanille » Jun 24th, '06, 17:57

Seeing the country objectively, I don't think Japan is a great country at all. Politically, there are some major things I disagree with (and seeing as how I'm politically active, I tend to put a lot of value on a country's politics). Also, Japan is a bit too isolationist plus the many other things I've mentioned in this thread.

Subjectively, I love Japan, though - and I couldn't tell you why. I've liked Asia since I was really little and even though I'm now old enough to see the many, many flaws, it doesn't stop me from liking it the way I've always liked it.

I think the bad things are almost on par with the good things in Japan, but it doesn't stop me from liking it far more than a good deal of other countries in the world (though it is no longer my favourite country.)

Being critical has nothing to do with bashing - bashing something would require to actually hate the thing you're talking about, since the very definition of the word is mindless, brainless insulting out of hatred. Intelligently explained arguments are NOT bashing and should thus be tolerated.

Loving something doesn't mean you need to turn a blind eye to its flaws and accept it as a perfect entity. Loving something doesn't mean you have to love EVERYTHING about it. Most of the posters on this thread seem to have understood this and are able to look at what they like in an objective way, so props to this thread thus far - there are many boards on the internet on which posters seem to fail to grasp this.

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Post by SaR » Jun 24th, '06, 18:10

mt877 wrote:I hate not being able to figure out how the cute Japanese (girl) store clerks wrap packages and only use one piece of tape.
I watch spell bound whenever I see them wrapping. They are fast and very neat. Oh, how I wish I could go visit Japan again.
I know the big department stores must have special training for this. I'd like to learn to wrap my presents like that too.

Hahah, yeah it looks really hard to do :blink .. The only thing I can wrap is my bento lunch kit... :scratch:

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Post by doink-chan » Jun 24th, '06, 19:07

Yeah, I agree with Nea...Japan, like many other countries, has flaws, and just like in other countries there are often many jerks/squicky perverted doinks/etc. It's not Shangri-La or the land of milk and honey, and the people are not perfect gods, they are simply people like the rest of us. I accept that there are doinky things about Japan as well as good things.

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Post by mizune » Jun 25th, '06, 00:37

O_o;;;
Good grief... it looks like I left the oven on and left for the weekend or something... :flamed:

While I don't agree with all the criticisms or opinions expressed in this thread, I still don't see any need to lock it. Despite the inherent negativity related to the thread topic, I still think it's an honest discussion on topics very ppl talk about about regardinng a place/culture many ppl are interested in knowing more about. :unsure:

But if you are genuinely concerned about it/don't agree, please feel free to PM me and we can discuss. As usual, I welcome any suggestions or comments.
:salut:

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Post by luith » Jun 25th, '06, 01:01

Cherishing reticence over garrulousness to such an extreme where no one helps anyone. Not everyone does it, but it is there. Ever seen Riri Shushu no Subete (All About Lily Chou-Chou)?

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Post by nikochanr3 » Jun 25th, '06, 03:23

Néa Vanille wrote:Seeing the country objectively, I don't think Japan is a great country at all. Politically, there are some major things I disagree with (and seeing as how I'm politically active, I tend to put a lot of value on a country's politics). Also, Japan is a bit too isolationist plus the many other things I've mentioned in this thread.

.
saying the country isnt good as a whole is kind of pushing it, isnt it? im not gonna push the topic, but this seems to me a discussion thats going to, sooner rather than later be a japan bashing thread.

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Post by horndogbuddhist » Jun 25th, '06, 03:40

the racism

Forgive me folks, but being Chinese *hoot hoot* I really don't like the fact that (generally speaking) most Japanese people tend to find other Asians as inferior to them...Granted that I understand Japanese history and their influx of nationalism since WWII. Don't get me wrong folks, I LOVE Japanese culture, people, nationalism, etc. I just dislike how there is still hatred b/w the nations in Asia (example- Chinese & Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc.) you get my picture?????


OK on to the things that I LOVE about Japan

1. the cars and the racing
2. the culture
3. THE WOMEN (Ito Misaki anyone???)
4. did I mention the CARS???? (SKYLINE???) :goggle:
Last edited by horndogbuddhist on Jun 25th, '06, 06:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Prince of Moles » Jun 25th, '06, 04:02

People in Japan are not racist towards people in China. They can't be, because they are of the same race. (By most definition of race: I'm talking skin color.)

Now if you want to say that people in Japan feel that their country is better than another country, say China. Then sure. I'll buy that argument.

But then again.

How many Americans think that the US is the best country in the world?

How many Chinese think that China is the best country in the world?

How many French feel that France is the best country in the world?

How many British feel that Britain is the best country in the world?

How many Koreans think that Korea is the best country in the world?

How many Canadians think that Canada is the best country in the world?

How many Brazilians think that Brazil is the best country in the world?

How many Vietnamese think that Vietnam is the best country in the world?

How many Thais think that Thailand is the best country in the world?

How many Russians think that Russia is the best country in the world?

How many Egyptians think that Egypt is the best country in the world?

Am I making a point yet?

So yeah, of course people in Japan think that Japan is the best country in the world. Why would it be different from almost anywhere else in the world?

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Post by horndogbuddhist » Jun 25th, '06, 05:59

Prince of Moles wrote:People in Japan are not racist towards people in China. They can't be, because they are of the same race. (By most definition of race: I'm talking skin color.)

Now if you want to say that people in Japan feel that their country is better than another country, say China. Then sure. I'll buy that argument.

But then again.

How many Americans think that the US is the best country in the world?

How many Chinese think that China is the best country in the world?

How many French feel that France is the best country in the world?

How many British feel that Britain is the best country in the world?

How many Koreans think that Korea is the best country in the world?

How many Canadians think that Canada is the best country in the world?

How many Brazilians think that Brazil is the best country in the world?

How many Vietnamese think that Vietnam is the best country in the world?

How many Thais think that Thailand is the best country in the world?

How many Russians think that Russia is the best country in the world?

How many Egyptians think that Egypt is the best country in the world?

Am I making a point yet?

So yeah, of course people in Japan think that Japan is the best country in the world. Why would it be different from almost anywhere else in the world?
actually yea they can be...try being a person from China or Korea and walk in Tokyo and see if people don't act differently towards you. I know that you're Japanese or from Japanese descent.......but from when I was growing up to pretty recently I was always taught to hate and despise Japanese people and culture....HAVE no idea why...just that was what was taught to me...Nowdays, I see the error of my mistakes and have taken a more Buddhist perspective of things....

I do see your point in stating that a country's nationalism is very important...

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Post by Néa Vanille » Jun 25th, '06, 10:26

nikochanr3 wrote: saying the country isnt good as a whole is kind of pushing it, isnt it? im not gonna push the topic, but this seems to me a discussion thats going to, sooner rather than later be a japan bashing thread.
First of all: learn to read. I said Japan wasn't great as alberto called it, and I certainly don't think it's great - I never said it wasn't GOOD. Japan isn't great, and I have every right in the world to think so. I never said it wasn't good and would never claim it wasn't.

What I said, in fact, was that the bad things were pretty much EQUAL to the good things, so what I said was that Japan was more or less a complicated country with many good and bad sides - not GREAT, but not BAD, either. If you can't accept that, then I don't know what you can, since it's clearly a rather neutral, hatred-free stance.

Second, even IF I had said Japan hadn't been a good country, it's called free speech, honey. If you're that sensitive about your treasured Japan, then just let us be - learning how to handle criticism and how to brush it off is a major sign of character strength. If even the moderators think it's fine then maybe you just need to grow a thicker skin. Just trying to ban everything you find offensive is a rather childish trait - in our society and culture, people have the right to publish offensive thoughts.

The concept of "don't like? don't read!" works well, I hear. Put me on your ignore list or just stop checking this thread, or what the hell ever - don't try to censor my speech without even understanding what I wrote, though.

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Post by nikochanr3 » Jun 25th, '06, 11:47

i didn't say your opinion was bad, i said this is going to become a japan bashing thread. you have been on the board for a while, no? this occurs sometimes. specifically if it becomes a nationalistic discussion. since this topic is just about whats wrong with JAPAN, it strikes me as very easy to occur.

dont get so angry, its just my opinion that at some point this thread will go there. this is a message board at d-addicts, not THE WORLD, and it does'nt need to allow topics that will become negative and possibly racist. it happens, and although people all express their opinions, its not positive.

and my opinion would be no different if you were discussing any country. i love a lot of places, not just japan. :lol And thus concludes my viewing of the thread. i shouldn't taint the discussion.

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Post by Néa Vanille » Jun 25th, '06, 12:09

Don't be petty.

This thread has been of very high quality so far, with all of the posters being rational. We can talk about locking when the first dumb bashers show up, but until then, locking this would be severely conservative and hurting mine and other's right to free speech.

For now, just accept the mods' decision and don't use my quote as a tool to get what you want (which you clearly did, calling me out of line when you misread my earlier post.)

Censorship of speech sucks.

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Post by Horizon » Jun 25th, '06, 18:05

Yeah, I was actually enjoying the discussion with Néa Vanille.
However, I have decided to stop since I can see it going on and on and eventually straying from the original point of the conversation (it always happens with these types of discussions). It was kind of getting too deep and I feel this isn't really the place for this kind of thing, these kinds of discussions only end if you speak through something with instant gratification like IM, VOIP, or even better face-to-face discussion.

All in all this is a pretty good thread. I think it would be a pretty big injustice to simply lock it because I think it has/will touch on some important issues, gives people something to think about, and can also be useful for people thinking of going there.

Although I can kind of see how it was getting a little heated, and I largely disagree with Néa Vanille; I really respect people who are willing to discuss their views in depth with an open mind instead of just shrugging it off or playing it down as a passing comment :-) .

When I disagree / think someone is wrong I always make sure to point out what I disagree with and expect the same in return. After all how can we improve ourselves and our thinking if we try too hard to "play nice" :argue: .

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Post by Néa Vanille » Jun 25th, '06, 18:46

Yes, our discussion was very enjoyable for me, too, Horizon. We could maybe continue it one day on MSN if you're interested.

Anyway, another thing came to me today while I was watching drama and I'd be interested in your opinion on it.

I tend to think that Japanese people are among the most beautiful in the world, and I generally even think they are more attractive than even Koreans, who are usually regarded the most beautiful in Asia. Today, it came to me that one thing I really prefer in Koreans is that, while Japanese seem so fond of dying their hair, they more often have BLACK hair.

The genuine kind of black hair that has blue or violet reflections and that I've never seen on any non-Asian people. I think this kind of genuine black hair is so much more beautiful than the various shades of brown and blonde the Japanese are so fond of ruining their beautiful hair with...

I think it's very okay to be experimenting with hair colours, but sometimes I wish more Japanese girls would keep their hair natural - it's usually so much more shiny and elegant when they do. I find I'm more attracted to the long, shiny black hair of Korean actresses than to the usually some kind of dyed hair of Japanese actresses, even though I find the latter to be more attractive on the whole in general.

Oh, the evils of blonde hair. :-(

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Post by Horizon » Jun 25th, '06, 19:38

LOL, I agree. I think their lovely hair is their best feature by far. Lately I have been seeing/told that the hair dyeing thing is catching on in Korea as well which is a shame :cry:.

At least we still have some hope with China, Taiwan etc.

I can appreciate that brown hair does suit some Japanese people better than black hair I still think it's a shame and I certainly don't think blonde suits any asian person :crazy:.
Last edited by Horizon on Jul 11th, '06, 09:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mythrel » Jun 25th, '06, 19:48

lol I think it can look cute on them. Hell they can have any hair colour they want I don't think it will take away their cuteness to me lol. Its true that their natural hair colour is beautiful too. Same could be said about north americans though like how many ''blondes'' do you see nowadays lol. Everyone is blonde it seems.


I think this thread shouldn't be locked because there are a lot of things I don't know about japanese culture. I just know a lot about their history and past but since post ww2 all I know is they seem to have lost themselves. Its the impression I get.

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Post by yumiko_ai » Jul 11th, '06, 07:15

Mm, well not everyone dyes their hair I know many Koreans who do, I think the ratio of Japanese and Koreans who dye their hair to be pretty much the same, likewise with Chinese people. I personally grew out of dyeing my hair (for now), I've dyed it since I was 7... But I sorta want to again...hehe

Anywayz, I think the thing I least like about the culture is, hmm, all the pressure in school, and the slow LOSS of traditions in Japan (my sis says I'm crazy to think that way). basically traditions are slowly shifting and things are changing a lot, people arent as careful about formalities and 'honorifics'. In school my friend Chihiro tells me that the pressure is very bad and some kids are scared of school, it becomes a phobia!

This is all my opinion only of course...~ >.<;;

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Post by Horizon » Jul 11th, '06, 09:46

I think one of the main things Japanese people are good at is taking things too seriously and putting pressure that shouldn't even be there on themselves. Everytime I talk to a Japanese person and they start going into philosophy on stupid insigniicant things I feel like screaming.

They like to rationalise everythng but I find them to be the most irrational people. Rationalisation doesn't work when your logic is completely screwed, it can actually have the opposite effect and this is where I can see them going wrong.

The way I see it, they try too hard to act smart. Their arguments are so stupid and weak I find it hard not to intervene, it's like the one who bullshits most wins with them. But the thing I like about them is they're more willing to listen and accept reason than westerners. I find it so frustrating arguing with fellow westerners. They tend to not even attempt to be rational or rather most of the time they aren't smart/sensible enough to be rational. At least with Japanese people you just have to inject a bit of reason into their thinking to get them on the right track. Compared to westerners, where you have to try so hard for them to even try to rationalise things, Japanese people are much better.

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Post by Néa Vanille » Jul 11th, '06, 09:48

That post sounds like you think everybody sucks but you. :lol

Edit: What I absolutely hate about the Japanese is when some of them tease me about my love for Korea and China. Granted, the majority of them just shrugs it off - but every once in a while I stumble across a Japanese who wants to convince me just how much better Japan is than Korea and who sends me tons of anti-Korean links about how the Koreans copy everything and blah blah blah...

I just think it's petty and arrogant, no matter the history. Thankfully, most Japanese today respect that I'm not Japanophile, but rather East Asiaphile and have a deep interest in Korea and China as well - but the few who don't regularly make me want to go :cussing: .

Same goes to a few Koreans I know who just won't shut up about how bad Japan is.

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