Against dramas and/or subs being streamed

Yorokobi · Post by **Yorokobi** » Jul 23rd, '07, 00:44

Hey
Recently ive come to realise many people are against dramas being streamed or at the least having fan subbers subs streamed.
Can I ask why? I cant seem to think of an explination on my own so can someone explain to me?

mod edit: a little warning if you plan on replying in this thread--please be sure you read EACH and EVERY reply BEFORE you post in this thread.

angelcoolz · Post by **angelcoolz** » Jul 23rd, '07, 01:03

Yorokobi wrote:Hey
Recently ive come to realise many people are against dramas being streamed or at the least having fan subbers subs streamed.
Can I ask why? I cant seem to think of an explination on my own so can someone explain to me?

are there ppl against dramas being streamed??? i dont think so

i know the most definite reason of why people/fansubbers AGAINST their project being streamed...this is because other ppl getting credit for other ppl work..example

You subbed a drama with ur hardwork
then I upload it to streamed site by saying IM THE ONE WHO SUB THIS...

dont u find it frustrating then??

khmai_kandi22 · Post by **khmai_kandi22** » Jul 23rd, '07, 01:20

Actually, this has been discussed many times already.

Basicially, fansubbing is illegal itself. So if people stream our works, the fansubbers are at risk and so as d-addicts. Another thing, ppl even mess up the works we do to removing the fansubber logos off of the video. They degrade our quality.... by streaming it. Heh, I can go on and on, but I don't want to.

groink · Post by **groink** » Jul 23rd, '07, 01:20

Several reasons:

1. Over-exposure. Fansubs ARE illegal in probably 95-percent of the world. Fansubbers generally do not what that kind of publicity. Better to keep things underground.

2. Credit. People who upload to streaming sites are receiving the credit for other people's work.

3. Quality. Regardless of what others say, re-ripping videos for streaming decreases video quality. Fansubbers don't appreciate re-rips - especially if their name is in the re-ripped video.

4. For profit. Sites like Crunchyroll are using fanworks to promote their own sites, and to even receive donations. These sites didn't make a single thing! Do you know for a fact that the donated money is being used 100-percent for the site? Same with YouTube and virtually any other streaming site. I don't see this practice any different from selling the videos on eBay.

--- groink

Yorokobi · Post by **Yorokobi** » Jul 23rd, '07, 01:33

I can see where your coming from but I myself cant bring myself to hate those who stream it.
I am in Japan at the moment without my own computer and im sure all you drama addicts know how difficult it is not to watch. So straming sites are really saving me, because the subs are being streamed it means I can watch dramas and understand even though I am currently unable to download. Normally I would watch it streamed because I agree the quality is so downgraded and I deffinatly dislike the fact that actual subbers arnt getting the credit but I need my drama fix and steaming is the only way I can get it!

Shadow Hexagram · Post by **Shadow Hexagram** » Jul 23rd, '07, 06:29

I don't think it's about hate but about preservation. Of course streaming sites can be quite convenient for us, mere leechers (myself having used them before when I couldn't wait one week or two for a single episode to download).
But as the uploaders above said, fansubbing is illegal, and streaming sites have drawn too much attention recently. And it would be really troublesome if some Japanese majors were to take actions against fansubs, d-addicts or uploaders in general just because of careless streamers.
The problem then is that are we to encourage streamers when we know the issues that are at stake or couldn't we just hold back and wait a bit longer, doing something else (like reading a book, doing some sport, having a drink...) while our torrents are slowly making their way through our hard-disk?

p.s: on a sidenote, I can also easily understand why some subbers can be pissed off when they see their efforts taken away somewhere else without their consent.

cutekid · Post by **cutekid** » Jul 23rd, '07, 06:39

i don't think the word hate should be used. it would be more appropriate if the word would be discouraged by the fansubbers.

as discussed before, fansubbing by itself is illegal and being posted in streaming site would mean being exposed to the owner/ copyrighter of the dramas. they can take legal actions for that...

second is the video is being downgraded. so you can't really enjoy the quality too.

its much better if you just download the video itself from torrents sites. or even much better buy the original disc just to support the owner.

Shadow Hexagram · Post by **Shadow Hexagram** » Jul 23rd, '07, 06:50

Of course, I can understand a bit Yorokobi's problem, being in a foreign country with no computer of her own. But on the other hand, being in Japan means that she should be able to buy or rent the dvds or at least watch dramas on TV...

Yorokobi · Post by **Yorokobi** » Jul 23rd, '07, 07:03

sure I can but I cant understand them because they have no subtitles. Of course I still watch them but it is not only Japanese dramas I want to see

deadlyromio · Post by **deadlyromio** » Jul 24th, '07, 09:09

Is fansubbing illegal? I mean..if it really was that illegal then I'm sure this site would no longer exist.

My two cents about watching streams...hey...I don't have enough space on my hard drive and I don't want to spend days with my computer on acting as a personal heater in my room to download some stuff. So I'm all for streams as long as there free.

I use winamp tv, sonakbi.com, youtube.com, veoh.com, imeem.com for most of my streaming needs.

Crunchyroll and Aznv, yea, I don't like the idea of paying for something that's not even their's, no matter how they put it.

spokeydokey00 · Post by **spokeydokey00** » Jul 24th, '07, 09:14

My opinion is, if the fansubbers are against their work being steamed then so am i. They are subbing these shows for free on their own time. So if they don't want their work streamed then we should respect that.

popoycanton · Post by **popoycanton** » Jul 24th, '07, 09:27

Is fansubbing illegal? I mean..if it really was that illegal then I'm sure this site would no longer exist.

Its a fact, its illegal. Same deal with anime. Going mainstream is not healthy for fansubbing thats why never uploading to streaming sites where the general public has easy access.

groink · Post by **groink** » Jul 24th, '07, 09:29

deadlyromio wrote:Is fansubbing illegal? I mean..if it really was that illegal then I'm sure this site would no longer exist.

Few notes here:

1. Fansubbing is deemed illegal because the translation of a copyright protected work and distributing it without the consent of the copyright owner or licensee is deemed illegal.

2. D-Addicts hasn't been taken down because, up to now, we're still low-profile, and that we comply to the cease-desist letters when they do arrive. In comparison to Japanese anime sites, the anime sites are getting the cease-desist notices because of the over-exposure that anime is now experiencing. D-Addict has in the past received cease-desist notices - for movies and licensed Korean dramas. As a result, you no longer see either of them.

So once again, the best thing for all of us is to keep the fanworks off the streaming sites. In a strange way, the complexity of BitTorrent is actually an advantage for us. I'd rather make the accessibility of dramas difficult than to make it insanely easy and have everyone and their grandmother be able to download and play them.

--- groink

popoycanton · Post by **popoycanton** » Jul 24th, '07, 09:37

the key word here is "low-profile"

I'd rather make the accessibility of dramas difficult than to make it insanely easy and have everyone and their grandmother be able to download and play them.

Amen.

If this was IRC all teh n00b people will be banned! lol joke peace!

metmahp · Post by **metmahp** » Jul 24th, '07, 19:05

groink, I see some of your subtitles at streaming sites. I agree with fan-subbed dramas not being of streaming sites. If the dramas' affiliates see their dramas on streaming site and see people subbing them illegally, than none of us will get access to dramas because they'll have to take it down. You can always download them. I download/buy my dramas. Streaming sites have bad qualities.

Shadow Hexagram · Post by **Shadow Hexagram** » Jul 24th, '07, 19:41

metmahp wrote:Streaming sites have bad qualities.

Let alone the sound quality that leaves you wondering if there's a hive of wasps trapped between your motherboard and your sound card...

melonyhappy · Post by **melonyhappy** » Jul 25th, '07, 03:41

i see where the subbers are coming from. I don't watch streams. unless torrent's completely dead. What i'm against.. are ppl encoding other ppl's subs and putting their own logo on the video. That I completely disagree with... (I'm not sure if they are the subbers themselves, but i highly doubt it.. or maybe i'm totally off the track).. actually worse are ppl that sell fansubs are on ebay. they just erk me...

Kamui6 · Post by **Kamui6** » Jul 25th, '07, 04:20

Can anyone tell me what's wrong with this person posting Kimi wa petto on Veoh which actually allows you to post the whole file.

http://www.veoh.com/videos/v800788z8xHjcDq
http://www.veoh.com/videos/v800904w88gtFCy

This dumbass broke up the files in two parts and of course other idiots download it and probably will share it the same way they got it. This is a case of completely f#$king up JTV's work.

Ppl just like the idea of getting there hands on vids the quickest way possible... most of the times that means not having to download them. They will support the streaming site with donations but not the actual fansub group that does the work and even pays out of their pocket to procure the DVDs for the raws [which aren't cheap].

I have to stop now or I am going to start getting real mean in a sec...

japanesegrl · Post by **japanesegrl** » Jul 25th, '07, 04:27

i agree w/ you Kamui6, this ppl won't listen at all!!

groink · Post by **groink** » Jul 25th, '07, 05:34

The problem with sites like Crunchyroll is that they use uploads as a means of collateral. The more uploads they make, the more services they get, such as faster downloads, access to exclusive material, etc. The whole system's totally f*cked.

--- groink

Shadow Hexagram · Post by **Shadow Hexagram** » Jul 25th, '07, 05:47

Kamui6 wrote:Ppl just like the idea of getting there hands on vids the quickest way possible... most of the times that means not having to download them. They will support the streaming site with donations but not the actual fansub group that does the work and even pays out of their pocket to procure the DVDs for the raws [which aren't cheap].

That sort of leechers should understand that they're taking the risk to see (actually they won't see it...) some upcoming dramas not subbed as subbers are getting more and more angry by that situation. Or at least subs will be delayed (just like what happened with Papa to Musume no Nanokakan when the former subbers found out that their work was broadcast on veoh)

p.s: another thought here. Most of us, who watch drama in our spare time, are adults, or at least just out of their teenage-hood. This means having a deeper sense of respect for the work and efforts of others, or at least to know how to read when you see bars and lines declaring "don't stream it, it's bad bad bad !!!". So, logically, participating in having them streamed is disrespectful, not smart at all but also it's partnering the actions of swindlers like crunchyroll who are taking advantage of gullible fans.

p.p.s: "free is always better" (Southern French saying)

foxtoast · Post by **foxtoast** » Jul 25th, '07, 05:52

groink wrote: D-Addict has in the past received cease-desist notices - for movies and licensed Korean dramas. As a result, you no longer see either of them.

Unlike animesuki, this site seems to only take down things when a legal letter is posted, no? I only ask because there are several licensed Korean dramas still on this site. If dramas grow in visibility/popularity (which I don't think is realistically a worry. At all. The segment of the English speaking population that would actually sit down and watch a foreign mini-soap with subtitles is miniscule) D-addicts might be wise to keep on top of licensing.

At any rate, it's hard to argue against streaming when that's the only way a lot of these series are available. A lot of series more than a year old (especially the Taiwanese and Korean ones) have no or one seeder. I let a six-episode bundle of The Rose run for literally more than two weeks before I gave up and went to You Tube. I've had another small bundle of a different series running since July 8. If subbers *really* don't want their subs streamed, they'd be wise to upload them to megaupload where the links don't expire and let us have access to them without being at the mercy of seeders.

(That is to say, I think *most* fans would rather torrent a series if torrents work on their computer because the quality is sooo much better and the file can be saved or burned to disk and shared. The trade off of "instant gratification" isn't worth saving a few hours for the terrible quality of streaming. In my case, though, it is worth saving multiple weeks, and for others they may not be able to use torrents and many series are not available direct-download. ...Of course, like a lot of fans my age I remember the days of sending away VHS tapes for fansubs, so torrents *are* "instant gratification" already!)

Shadow Hexagram · Post by **Shadow Hexagram** » Jul 25th, '07, 05:58

foxtoast wrote:If subbers *really* don't want their subs streamed, they'd be wise to upload them to megaupload where the links don't expire and let us have access to them without being at the mercy of seeders.

Links do break / disappear and if you really want to complete your series quickly, you'll have to pay anyway.

p.s: aaaah my good old IRC, were art thou ?.....

foxtoast · Post by **foxtoast** » Jul 25th, '07, 06:08

Shadow Hexagram wrote:
foxtoast wrote:If subbers *really* don't want their subs streamed, they'd be wise to upload them to megaupload where the links don't expire and let us have access to them without being at the mercy of seeders.
Links do break / disappear and if you really want to complete your series quickly, you'll have to pay anyway.

p.s: aaaah my good old IRC, were art thou ?.....

I've seen a few groups either upload the eps as they finish them (so it's only one upload every 10 days or so) or later on at-leisure as a way to archive. The links do break, sure, but for things that never get seeded it's a boon (and makes me double-love the subbers

) Nothing to say it can't be fan-aided, either. I've reuploaded old broken links for other fans to keep lists current.

All I'm saying is that subbers can't complain about streaming when it's the only way to get a certain series. (IRC never worked on my Mac...)

(As for buying the DVDs for raws -- nobody's done this for ages expect for movies. TV raws come straight from Tivo or the equivalent, so theoretically nobody should be spending anything to produce and post and download a fansub.)

elden41 · Post by **elden41** » Jul 25th, '07, 06:14

Seems like there's a new troll every day. Do not feed trolls.

groink · Post by **groink** » Jul 25th, '07, 06:33

Have a lot of you already forgotten???? The purpose of P2P is to scatter parts of a file all over the Internet so that no one server has 100-percent of the file. P2P is much like 10 guys walking across the border, each carrying a piece of a bomb. You can't bust a guy for carrying a battery or a clock. Same thing with binary files - you can't get busted for having just a piece of a video (and probably mis-ordered as well) sitting on your HD.

These pro-direct download people are trying to phase P2P off the Internet because they're so god damned lazy and impatient. If that's so, then why not just bring back SSH-based FTP and go back to the days of L33T FTP sites? Until P2P came to be, I was fine with FTP. That's why suggestions like leaving a file on something like MegaUpload is a stupid piece of advice. By doing so, you're putting both the uploader AND the owner of the server at risk of being sued. Oh, I forgot... Leechers could care less if you get busted with having movies on your server. P2P isn't 100-percent anonymous, but at least it makes it much more difficult to find 100-percent of the file sitting on your PC.

N00bs, please take a history lesson on P2P...

--- groink

Kamui6 · Post by **Kamui6** » Jul 25th, '07, 06:55

foxtoast wrote:
Shadow Hexagram wrote:
foxtoast wrote:If subbers *really* don't want their subs streamed, they'd be wise to upload them to megaupload where the links don't expire and let us have access to them without being at the mercy of seeders.
Links do break / disappear and if you really want to complete your series quickly, you'll have to pay anyway.

p.s: aaaah my good old IRC, were art thou ?.....
I've seen a few groups either upload the eps as they finish them (so it's only one upload every 10 days or so) or later on at-leisure as a way to archive. The links do break, sure, but for things that never get seeded it's a boon (and makes me double-love the subbers ) Nothing to say it can't be fan-aided, either. I've reuploaded old broken links for other fans to keep lists current.

All I'm saying is that subbers can't complain about streaming when it's the only way to get a certain series. (IRC never worked on my Mac...)

(As for buying the DVDs for raws -- nobody's done this for ages expect for movies. TV raws come straight from Tivo or the equivalent, so theoretically nobody should be spending anything to produce and post and download a fansub.)

One thing you seem not to have noticed is that Streamers don't want to download the files at all. They don't want to go thru the hassle of looking up a file and setting it to download. They don't want to have to try to figure out what codec they need. They are a bunch of lazy-ass that are dragging us down.

As for buying DVD for raws - who says 'nobody's done that for ages' ?

OMG... "All I'm saying is that subbers can't complain about streaming when it's the only way to get a certain series" I can't believe you actually typed that... serious hope you don't really believe it.

nophankh · Post by **nophankh** » Jul 25th, '07, 07:57

This might be a stupid question but are uploading raw dramas onto Megaupload illegal?

groink · Post by **groink** » Jul 25th, '07, 08:18

nophankh wrote:This might be a stupid question but are uploading raw dramas onto Megaupload illegal?

Of course it is illegal. RAWs were recorded off TV. In most countries, you're not allowed to distribute what you record off TV. For example, in Japan, TV show recordings are governed by Hobankyo, which allows limited distribution of TV shows within Japan and through registered rental stores outside of Japan. Only videos that reveal the Hobankyo holographic logo are legal.

Also, JASRAC (the Japan's RIAA) is aggressively removing their client's materials off sites like YouTube, and are sending cease/desist notices to Crunchyroll. I even had my YouTube account permanently suspended because of the videos I uploaded there (of which none were fanworks, BTW.)

So once again, you can't just record shows off TV in most countries and then spread it across the world via the Internet.

--- groink

narutaru · Post by **narutaru** » Jul 25th, '07, 08:28

I absolutely hate when people upload fan sub onto streaming sites without permission from groups.

It puts the subbers and fans at risk. I much rather spend a week waiting for an episode of a drama to finish downloading, than having the ability to watch subs takes away from me.

People who put stuff up onto youtube etc without the permission of subbing groups are all stupid selfish wankers without half a brain!

ethidda · Post by **ethidda** » Jul 25th, '07, 09:22

Most things uploaded to Veoh are broken into < 1hr parts because of a Veoh limitation. Even though you can upload very long videos, if a video is over 1 hr long, only the first 5 minutes will stream.

I personally dislike streaming because it's way too troublesome.

First, there's the reencoding. Youtube has that 10 minute limit. Veoh has that hour long limit. If you didn't originally encode with their specifications--which you probably didn't for quality's sake--then you have to reencode. Most people don't realize how annoying encoding is.

Second, there is the sheer multitude of streaming sites. YouTube, Veoh, CR, tudou, and lots more. Everybody seems to have their preference. And pretty soon, even a dorm internet-connection is not enough.

Third, streaming only saves space because the quality of the file is worse and therefore the file is smaller. You still need to have the space while you're watching it. In terms of space, it is exactly the same as downloading a low quality video and then deleting it later. In fact, if you want to grab youtube videos, you can go find the file in your temp internet file folder and rename the extension...

Fourth, there's the age old problem of credits. The group either has to upload to streaming themselves (extra work) or someone outside the group has to upload it... then do they receive credit? They did SOME work... but it was not approved by the group. For this issue, I see it as fansubbing, though. If they keep a low profile, then nobody can stop them. But once they receive a cease and desist, then they should stop.

Fifth, it's too much trouble to figure out the specific reason when people decide to do something on streaming that a group doesn't like. So they just make a simple generalization: no streaming allows.

foxtoast · Post by **foxtoast** » Jul 26th, '07, 00:52

As for buying DVD for raws - who says 'nobody's done that for ages' ?

OMG... "All I'm saying is that subbers can't complain about streaming when it's the only way to get a certain series" I can't believe you actually typed that... serious hope you don't really believe it.

Given that the majority of series currently posted to d-addicts are ripped straight from TV and posted, very often, within a few days of their original airing, nobody is buying DVDs in this equation. I do remember friends of mine buying $500 Laser Disc sets to subtitle anime way back when. That was a financial investment, and nowadays there is no need for it apart from feature films or old series (if groups choose to buy DVDs out of personal preference that's their business, but it's not mandatory and it's not nearly as common as it was. Several series that have DVD version subs currently posted also have TV versions from different groups).

I'm not a troll, unless disagreement makes one a troll. I very much respect the fact that subbers spend a lot of time on something that's marginally for their benefit and mostly for others. I've always respected do not redistribute requests and have only uploaded raws since srt files are easy to get. I largely forget about hardsubs in this equation because I usually only watch soft subs. If the sub groups that subbed the dramas I've watched streaming are upset about it, I wouldn't know since they're not around. (If they were, they should seed 'em, or post the address of their blog/page in the subtitles, or otherwise give fans a way of getting the file while it's no longer active.) I still don't see what's so hideously offensive about saying "I'll watch something streaming if it's the only way to get it". I really think y'all are over-estimating the laziness factor in this equation. A lot of it is lack of knowledge on P2P or inaccessability of the files in the first place.

There's also the issue of this being bootlegging and copyright infringement in the first place. Either method of delivery is completely, wholly illegal. One isn't any more or less of a legal pickle. YouTube may raise visibility by virtue of it being easier to stumble upon the files, but if there's a crackdown copyright holders aren't only going to go after the most visible infringers. sub groups also burn in "subbed by: ___" so it's not like translation credits are being wholly usurped by whoever uploads for streaming. And there's obviously no loss of profit, either, since it's fansubbing. If a group doesn't want a sub streamed then that should be respected, but it's quite different from theft.

applebear · Post by **applebear** » Jul 26th, '07, 01:06

So, anyway...

Shadow Hexagram mentions IRC. I happen to really like IRC. Why isn't it used?

Kamui6 · Post by **Kamui6** » Aug 2nd, '07, 09:47

http://www.veoh.com/videos/v5330173QBT63Mw#comments

Kamui6 wrote:Thanks for renaming our [JTV] files and posting them where ever you like. At least you kept the files intact unlike some of the others that have upload JTV work here. Thanks for not support JTV.

mistwalker117 wrote:and you dont even post any drama's but MV's? okay you're not supporting your website either

Kamui6 wrote:ARE YOU AN IDIOT? You know what this could do to the ppl doing the fansubbing. Keep making it so public. You won't be the one's to get in trouble for watching them. I am not supporting JTV? I f#$king created JTV, work on various files, distribute files. It's been 6 years now and 'i don't support JTV', YOU TRULY ARE AN IDIOT!!!

Post by **jholic** » Aug 3rd, '07, 04:01

kamui6: i edited your post to make it easier to understand. for a while, i wasn't sure what was going on....

Kamui6 · Post by **Kamui6** » Aug 8th, '07, 00:53

jholic wrote:kamui6: i edited your post to make it easier to understand. for a while, i wasn't sure what was going on....

Thanks

J

... I think i did that when i was half asleep.

IndieRockerette · Post by **IndieRockerette** » Aug 8th, '07, 01:22

Kamui6 wrote:http://www.veoh.com/videos/v5330173QBT63Mw#comments

Kamui6 wrote:Thanks for renaming our [JTV] files and posting them where ever you like. At least you kept the files intact unlike some of the others that have upload JTV work here. Thanks for not support JTV.

mistwalker117 wrote:and you dont even post any drama's but MV's? okay you're not supporting your website either

Kamui6 wrote:ARE YOU AN IDIOT? You know what this could do to the ppl doing the fansubbing. Keep making it so public. You won't be the one's to get in trouble for watching them. I am not supporting JTV? I f#$king created JTV, work on various files, distribute files. It's been 6 years now and 'i don't support JTV', YOU TRULY ARE AN IDIOT!!!

Ehhhh

??! That person is a real IDIOT:cussing: !! I 100% respect fansubbers wishes if they don't want their work uploaded to a streaming site. I don't understand why people upload fansubbed series in the first place. I don't know what they get out of it, besides for the backlash from fansubbers. I wonder if they like the appreciation of those people who are too lazy to go download it for themselves.. the "omg I love you thank you soooo much!" probably gets to their head and makes them break the rules

! They are putting our community at risk and really hurting fans who actually respect fansubbers rules

!

To those who fansub.. I really appreciate everything you guys do. You take time out of your lives to sub for fans, who sometimes are whiny bitchy and break the rules, but you still do it so THANK YOU so much. I really hope the whole streaming issue gets resolved, but it doesn't seem like it will any time soon. As long as there is still people who are too lazy to go download but want to see dramas in low quality on streaming sites and people who are stupid enough to break the rules and upload it there, we'll always have this problem. But thank you for still subbing for fans.. you guys totally ROCK

!

hardy har har · Post by **hardy har har** » Aug 8th, '07, 01:41

angelcoolz wrote:
Yorokobi wrote:Hey
Recently ive come to realise many people are against dramas being streamed or at the least having fan subbers subs streamed.
Can I ask why? I cant seem to think of an explination on my own so can someone explain to me?
are there ppl against dramas being streamed??? i dont think so

i know the most definite reason of why people/fansubbers AGAINST their project being streamed...this is because other ppl getting credit for other ppl work..example

You subbed a drama with ur hardwork
then I upload it to streamed site by saying IM THE ONE WHO SUB THIS...

dont u find it frustrating then??

Ehh.. I don't buy it. Don't fansubbers go out of their way to credit themselves and everyone involved during the episode? I mean honestly, I don't understand the point of fansubbing then? Who's it for exactly? For the fans? For the fansubber ego? We all do give thanks when it's released to the Original Source and that's here at D-Addicts.com, shouldn't that be all that matters?

Is it really illegal to fansub? I think the illegal part is burning the original RAW file in the first place, correct me if I'm wrong.

kawaiimomo · Post by **kawaiimomo** » Aug 8th, '07, 01:42

wow i never knew why people didn't like their work on streaming site until now! knowing that it's illegal i appreciate subbers so much MORE now!!! now that i didn't in the past! but sadly i only watch drama by streaming sites cause i don't know how to download torrents or anything!!

but i'll learn if someone teaches me!

IndieRockerette · Post by **IndieRockerette** » Aug 8th, '07, 01:56

hardy har har wrote: Ehh.. I don't buy it. Don't fansubbers go out of their way to credit themselves and everyone involved during the episode? I mean honestly, I don't understand the point of fansubbing then? Who's it for exactly? For the fans? For the fansubber ego? We all do give thanks when it's released to the Original Source and that's here at D-Addicts.com, shouldn't that be all that matters?

Is it really illegal to fansub? I think the illegal part is burning the original RAW file in the first place, correct me if I'm wrong.

To answer your second question, groink already posted an answer for it:

groink wrote:
deadlyromio wrote:Is fansubbing illegal? I mean..if it really was that illegal then I'm sure this site would no longer exist.
Few notes here:

1. Fansubbing is deemed illegal because the translation of a copyright protected work and distributing it without the consent of the copyright owner or licensee is deemed illegal.

2. D-Addicts hasn't been taken down because, up to now, we're still low-profile, and that we comply to the cease-desist letters when they do arrive. In comparison to Japanese anime sites, the anime sites are getting the cease-desist notices because of the over-exposure that anime is now experiencing. D-Addict has in the past received cease-desist notices - for movies and licensed Korean dramas. As a result, you no longer see either of them.

So once again, the best thing for all of us is to keep the fanworks off the streaming sites. In a strange way, the complexity of BitTorrent is actually an advantage for us. I'd rather make the accessibility of dramas difficult than to make it insanely easy and have everyone and their grandmother be able to download and play them.

--- groink

I'll leave your first question for an actual subber to answer since I am not a subber and will only be answering it from my perspective.

People, please READ past posts before asking questions and/or posting.

cutekid · Post by **cutekid** » Aug 8th, '07, 09:09

fansubbing is really hard work, and i really appreciate all the people taking the time to sub for fans for free. i really do appreciate them. as much as possible i will support them

groink · Post by **groink** » Aug 8th, '07, 23:07

In case some people don't believe fansubbing is illegal:

Police arrest French teen over Potter translation

To correlate this story with what I've been writing all along: What makes fansubbing illegal is that the translation of a verbal or written work is still in the eyes of the law the property of the original work's owner. The idea behind this is that the physical translation is not what's at issue, but rather the ideas and the knowledge someone gets out of the translation is what's being given away. With Potter's book, the free French translated version basically gives away the entire story - and to the cost of the licensee who legally translated the book in French in terms of potential revenue.

--- groink

Post by **ironicwave** » Aug 11th, '07, 23:42

i agree that the harry potter example pretty much proves the illegality, though the whole arrest thing is hardly something i'd be afraid of while subbing j dramas...
since harry potter is officially translated into french, of course the kid was messin with people actually in the french market...

so far i haven't heard too much about japanese drama producers actively hunting down drama fansubbers, so the one thing that would concern me most about fanwork on streaming media isn't the legal repercussions as much as the cease and desist letters that could possibly be provoked by the higher visibility...

fans of subbed drama have to realize that sooner or later those letters will come, but subbers would just prefer it be later... ^^ people uploading to streaming media sites are just pushing that ominous date up sooner and i don't think that's in anyone's best interest in the drama community we share...

Kamui6 · Post by **Kamui6** » Aug 12th, '07, 01:22

hardy har har wrote:
Ehh.. I don't buy it. Don't fansubbers go out of their way to credit themselves and everyone involved during the episode? I mean honestly, I don't understand the point of fansubbing then? Who's it for exactly? For the fans? For the fansubber ego? We all do give thanks when it's released to the Original Source and that's here at D-Addicts.com, shouldn't that be all that matters?

Is it really illegal to fansub? I think the illegal part is burning the original RAW file in the first place, correct me if I'm wrong.

Why fansubber actually take time out of their lives to do the work...

I can only answer using my own experience and what I've observe about the ppl I interact with.

I've always been part of JTV fansub... I don't know japanese therefore I can't translate. I do enjoy watching Jdramas... so it benifits me to have the series translated. While we are enjoying a series, others can enjoy as well. For example; someone loves a certain actress and her work, he goes out of his way to buy the R2 DVDs but he doesn't know the language. He says, can we work on this series. [Reason Motorae was one of our project] Another example, someone who's a translator says hey guys have you seen this series... I think other would enjoy it as much as I have, lets work on this series. I love this writers work. [That's how Kisarazu Cat's Eye became one of our projects]

There are times when it gets discouraging, since you're taking time out of your life to share something you enjoy but then you're meet with grief.

So what i am trying to say is, most of the time we are doing it for ourself and others.

Missconceptions · Post by **Missconceptions** » Aug 17th, '07, 01:57

With youtube and all other streaming sites do people not understand how many companies are cracking down on people. Especially Japan & with YA Ent with Korean dramas it just to much of a risk to have a video with over 30,000 hit on yt with you sub team name on it.

This really shouldn't even need to be discussed. I never really realized how ungrateful some people are. These people go out of their way to sub shows that you can't understand, the only thing they ask is that you don't redistribute them. Why is that so hard to understand?
Even if it doesn't make since to some, it's what's been asked by people who are subbing and helping everyone. Just follow the rules.

Oh, this wasn't to anyone in particular either. Just ranting.

groink · Post by **groink** » Aug 17th, '07, 03:11

Missconceptions wrote:Why is that so hard to understand?

It isn't anything to do with understanding. It is everything to do with the Web 2.0 madness. These leachers want to be seen and liked by the Internet community. They want hundreds of people singing their praises. Web 2.0 now gives them this outlet. Sites like Crunchyroll give incentives for people to upload content. In exchange, they receive points ("cr" points, for example) which can then be used to obtain more privileges, such as storage space, faster downloads, and much more. If fansubbing was to totally shut down, there would be NOTHING to upload to these sites. Hence the need for these uploaders to use other fansubbing groups' content as collateral in order to get these benefits.

These streaming sites give out these points in order to increase uploads. They want the uploads so that the number of hits at their site increases. Hits equal advertising co-ops. They can obtain co-op funds from companies like Yahoo! and Google to pay for the equipment and bandwidth. The more hits, the more co-op funds they receive. This is why the fuckheads like Shinji and his buddies at Crunchyroll "look the other way" when it comes to removing content from their site. Removing content affects their hits, which then affects their co-op funds. Fansubbing is indirectly feeding Shinji's empire!

Just like eBay sellers making money off fansubs, streaming sites are just as greedy. And I don't want my works to be a part of it. That's why I encourage ALL fansubbing groups to really enforce their no-streaming-uploads policies, and have these policies affect the leaching community. Do NOT give in to these "wahh, I can't watch XXXX". If the community wants the next episode to be subbed, they should start blasting these streaming sites and force them to cooperate by policing what is uploaded a lot more carefully. I hate being a total dick about it, but this is the ONLY way.

--- groink

doriangrey64 · Post by **doriangrey64** » Oct 8th, '07, 14:37

i would agree with the people who are against uploading it to places where these dramas can be downloaded but if people actually seeded these dramas there wouldnt be a problem. fair enough new dramas are likely to have many seeds however older dramas are not. it took me 4 days to get two episodes of Kinpachi Sensei 6 while having my PC running for nearly 24hrs each day, now thats taking the piss. so if more people seeded there wouldnt b a need for streaming sites.

Also if someone is on a crap connection they may not be able to download such big files. so they resort to streaming sites, that cant be helped. But like groink said he doesnt want it to become popular outside the community because it is bad. i disagree, there is a possibilty that if it becomes popular and known in the west we may actually start to see some official releases of these dramas with english subs (or the language you speak). This will be much better since we would get DVD quality picture and subs. I would buy a release of Kinpachi Sensei, i might of bought one already if it didnt only have japanese subs.

groink · Post by **groink** » Oct 8th, '07, 18:34

doriangrey64 wrote:i would agree with the people who are against uploading it to places where these dramas can be downloaded but if people actually seeded these dramas there wouldnt be a problem. fair enough new dramas are likely to have many seeds however older dramas are not. it took me 4 days to get two episodes of Kinpachi Sensei 6 while having my PC running for nearly 24hrs each day, now thats taking the piss. so if more people seeded there wouldnt b a need for streaming sites.

Also if someone is on a crap connection they may not be able to download such big files. so they resort to streaming sites, that cant be helped. But like groink said he doesnt want it to become popular outside the community because it is bad. i disagree, there is a possibilty that if it becomes popular and known in the west we may actually start to see some official releases of these dramas with english subs (or the language you speak). This will be much better since we would get DVD quality picture and subs. I would buy a release of Kinpachi Sensei, i might of bought one already if it didnt only have japanese subs.

Oh, man... I'm laughing my fricking arse off reading this. This person has absolutely no clue as to what's going on in the land of Asian dramas.

First off, the goal is NOT to become popular in the West. Take YA Entertainment for example. Korean dramas became popular in the West. YAE took advantage and purchased licenses for MANY of the popular shows. And NOW, D-Addicts must shut down most of the torrents because of the cease-desist letters Ruroshin received from YAE. Why do you think Korean dramas on D-Addicts make up less than 1/4th of the total torrents? If a Kinpachi Sensei DVD with English subs were released in the West, you would be FORCED to purchase it because it would be removed from D-Addicts - along with all the other licensed products. Did you even think this through before writing???????

Second, crap connections, loss of seeding, etc.... This is entertainment! Jesus Christ, God or whoever the frick you believe in did not add an 11th commandment saying "Thou shall be entertained." There are hundreds more important things in life than to worry your arse off about not getting seeded. What you're basically doing is making the leeches happy, but at the same time you're adding to the problem long-term. Posting to the streaming sites adds additional exposure to our fanworks that we DON'T want.

And third, THOSE KINPACHI SENSEI VIDEOS CAME FROM KIKU YOU ARSEHOLE!!!! I live in Hawaii, mind you, and I receive much of my Japanese dramas from KIKU. I know the people at KIKU and JN Productions, and they're aware of their subtitled works being scattered throughout the Internet. And for quite a long time, they actually cut DOWN on trendy dramas because their viewership shrunk due to downloading. People like you spreading their shows on largely accessed streaming sites is NOT helping us Hawaiians who depend on KIKU - as well as KFBD and all the other Asian TV stations. Again, you're adding to the problem!

--- groink

Scottishlass · Post by **Scottishlass** » Oct 8th, '07, 19:47

doriangrey64 wrote: i disagree, there is a possibilty that if it becomes popular and known in the west we may actually start to see some official releases of these dramas with english subs (or the language you speak). This will be much better since we would get DVD quality picture and subs.

You never have bought some of the official released DVDs WITH English subs then ... figures. There are a certain percentage of Taiwanese, Korean and Japanese series/movies DVDs available with English subtitles.
They suck most of the time because these DVDs are being produced with the lowest net cost possible. Some subs seem to have been translated with an on-line translator rather than an actual living, breathing translator who might have a BA or MA in English (if we are lucky). Best example is Magical Ring a Taiwanese drama. I bought the official DVD set and have given up on watching it because the English subs just don't make a frigging sense.

As for the question raised here how fansubbers feel about their work being bandied around on streaming sites, esp. with our names up there. It is scary!! And annoying. I have only subbed one jdrama so far, and I didn't even translate the whole series but timed and edited and did spot translations. We specifically chose only to release soft subs so leechers might have a harder time hardsubbing the files first to put them up on any streaming sites. And yet it is done. It is downright scary to see one's names in a file that wasn't supposed to be up there, and was supposed to never be seen in this kind of context. We only provided the soft subs, never an actual complete hardsub. And yet now it looks like we did, adding copyright infringement of media files to the copyright infringement of the spoken word in a script.
We have quit doing subs for the time being. The legal consequences are just too harsh to be facing alone thanks to all those idiots ignoring the *do not stream* request of the fansubbers.

doriangrey64 · Post by **doriangrey64** » Oct 8th, '07, 20:22

either way i havent been watching dramas for long so i dont know the whole history you are talking about. but what it seems like to me is that you are saying that you would rather download it for free via fansubs then pay for an official release i.e continue something which is illegal? O_o

you may argue that the subs may not be great or in some cases dub-titles like the Naruto volume that was released by Manga Entertainment recently. but not all subs are poor, if they get enough of a following they can spend more time focusing their efforts on improving these aspects.

well you are lucky to live in hawaii where you have a station that shows such things. in the uk a station like that is non existant.

i have a fair few asian dvds (movies) but i havent seen any dramas here in the UK to buy on dvd.

nikochanr3 · Post by **nikochanr3** » Oct 8th, '07, 20:31

If the person doing the subbing doesn't want it streamed, it should not be streamed. PERIOD. The anonymity of the internet has made people not only do things against other people's wishes, but to rationalize it as being ok. (I know you don't want me to stream it, but he is my argument for it). Its ridiculous. If a fansub team does NOT want an item streamed, it shouldn't be, and you are basically being a total ****** for doing it.

As with all these arguments my position is always the same, as a leecher (a happy grateful one but a leecher none the less) my position is ALWAYS the fansubbers position.

100% of the time. Because it's THEIR time and THEIR work.

I always wish just ONE time the people who go against the fansubbers wishes would run into them in pubic. I guarantee in real life if i worked on something as a hobby and someone TOOK it after i told them not to and distributed it there would be very real and very ugly repercussions.

doriangrey64 · Post by **doriangrey64** » Oct 8th, '07, 20:37

like u said nikochanr3 i also dont agree with someone uploading something if the fansubbing group/person asked if people could not upload it to a streaming site. i dont think thats right if they ignore this.

Scottishlass · Post by **Scottishlass** » Oct 8th, '07, 20:39

doriangrey64 wrote:so you are saying that you would rather download it for free via fansubs then pay for an official release? well you are lucky you have a station that shows such things. in the uk a station like that is non existant. i have asian dvds (movies) but i havent seen any dramas here in the UK to buy on dvd.

Oh I pay for official releases via yesasia. 2/3 of my Asian collection are official DVDs, I just don't watch them on TV but at the computer where I can load the fansubs I have downloaded from the net. Once a drama/movie is released on DVD and I know it is being subbed, I buy the official release. That is why I prefer soft subs to hardsubs. This way I can appreciate and watch my favourite doramas and support the production AND protect/appreciate the fansubbers.

doriangrey64 · Post by **doriangrey64** » Oct 8th, '07, 20:47

thats the thing i would rather watch it on tv sometimes, its more comfortable to sit in my sofa. i do the same for anime, except i just buy the dvd when they are released over here (meaning the uk) at an affordable price. currently anime is way too expensive, in shops anyways. online can be cheaper.

what you could do with those dvds is make copies and add the fansub as a selectable sub on the new dvd so you could watch it on your tv, if you wanted to.

Archaenon · Post by **Archaenon** » Oct 8th, '07, 20:51

nikochanr3 wrote:If the person doing the subbing doesn't want it streamed, it should not be streamed. PERIOD.

That should be enough for you people. These people taking thier time to sub what they love FOR FREE , they don't have to do it all and you can wait for licensed releases when they come out , missing out on alot of dramas. So if they say no streaming , then don't stream. It's rude.

Plus, it's illegal on many stanpoints. Not to mention . If they really wanted to they could make it harder to get these shows in general , they could ban subbing completely and fine every fansubber and ruin all thier hardwork providing subs for you people.

So don't stream it , download it and watch it. Don't re-distribute or post on streaming sites because it's a douche thing to do.

You could spend the money and buy an all-region divx dvd player. Mine plays everything and I put the shows on dvd with the .srt files and watch them on my tv. I don't make copies for anyone and upload them anywhere. I do end up buying a lot of shows though.

You have to admit 100 - 200 USD is really really high for 12 eps. When House is like 24 eps and under 50 USD.

critiasc · Post by **critiasc** » Nov 20th, '07, 21:31

Hmm... but if I were to upload and stream my own subs, so that my own friends can watch it streaming(bad connection) will that be a problem?

Well, I'm not part of any fansub group for that matter.

There isn't any way stream them to my friends and be relatively "safe" at the same time?

hey9 · Post by **hey9** » Nov 24th, '07, 05:46

Urk...oops, I donated like $5 CDN to crunchyroll in May...sorry!

I didn't even realize Shinji was getting money off the ads, I thought you only got money if people clicked on them. Well, he totally suckered me in with his poor man spiel.

Now I feel bad

critiasc · Post by **critiasc** » Nov 24th, '07, 06:00

I'm not sure what is going on now... Well, according to one guy (a mod)

"I don't watch anything here either unless I'm previewing new series for myself. I upload and help out in the forums. I'm just pointing out that you people have no right to complain about a free service.

Bandwidth really isn't cheap at all. Here's the recent statistics of the traffic at cr:
http://www.statsaholic.com/crunchyroll.com

As you can see there has been an ever increasing trend of new users. Every month, Shinji pays for a set amount of bandwidth, if he goes over, the service provider charges pretty harshly for every mb/gb over the limit. The average episode is around 200-300 mb. That means for every user who watches just ONE show, about 250 mb is used up. With a couple thousand users watching multiple shows each day that definitely reaches into terrabytes probably.

Last month he paid about $20,000 ( I think?). To support, you only need to pay $6 and there's probably only a couple hundred of them on this site (way overestimating here). That won't account for nearly 1/4 of the total so come on people. Stop complaining when a college student is trying to provide some sort of help to people all over the world. "

Is that true? Because if that's the case, you have a student paying 20k for freeloaders..

groink · Post by **groink** » Jan 10th, '08, 06:16

critiasc wrote:Is that true? Because if that's the case, you have a student paying 20k for freeloaders..

Hehehee... Check out this article...

techcrunch.com wrote:Crunchyroll is a San Francisco based startup that is a sort of YouTube for anime and other mostly Asian video content. The three founders, who asked to remain anonymous, are all employees of HotOrNot and the company operates out of HotOrNot’s San Francisco offices (although HotOrNot has no financial interest in the company, according to the founders).

The site launched in the summer of 2006 and has grown rapidly, particularly since March 2007. Worldwide comscore stats show 1.3 million unique visitors in July, up from 480,000 in March. The company also had nearly 100 million page views in July and is seeing 20% monthly page view growth.

That growth was apparently enough to get the attention of at least one possible suitor, Viacom. A source tells us that the company was very close to selling to Viacom for $10 million earlier this year, but the deal fell through when Viacom realized that owning the site, which contains a lot of copyright infringing content, may have hurt their positioning in the billion dollar ongoing litigation with Google. Crunchyroll refused to comment on the deal.

All video is uploaded by users and has advertising around it. Premium users who “donate” $6 per month to the site get an ad free version and higher quality video. Rumor has it the company is making $75k/month or so in revenue.

Crunchyroll’s business model is unique in that users pay them to view high quality versions of the content, much of which is copyright infringing. That certainly weakens their reliance on the Digital Millennium Copyright safe harbor provision, which protects service providers from liability for content uploaded by users.

The safe harbor provision only applies if the service provider “does not receive a financial benefit directly attributable to the infringing activity.” It is arguable as to whether advertising around copyrighted content is a direct financial benefit, but it is even more difficult to suggest that a direct subscription fee, even if it is classified as a “donation” doesn’t trip the clause. Either way, Crunchyroll is certainly pushing the envelope as to acceptable behavior under the DMCA.

Stretching The Limits Is Often Lucrative

What’s interesting is that some of the worst offenders when it comes to copyright law have ended up doing very well.

ALLOfMP3 continues to stay in business despite being sued for $1.65 trillion by the RIAA. YouTube, the king of infringers, sold to Google for a cool $1.65 billion. Blogmusik managed to land licensing deals and remain in business. Imeem is growing like a weed despite a very chequered past. The list goes on.

Crunchyroll’s pursuit of premium donations is so audacious that it just might work for them. The company says they regularly comply with DMCA take down notices and other requests to have content removed. And they say that in general their relationship with the Anime and other content creators is very good. Some of those content creators have even approached the company and have suggested working together.

In the end, Crunchroll has over a million passionate anime users who come to the site daily to view content. The business model is secondary. Smart content owners will find a way to mine that user base and make more money.

Crunchyroll has not raised any capital to date, but is talking to venture capitalists now.

Was I right or was I RIGHT????

--- groink

groink · Post by **groink** » Apr 8th, '08, 05:08

Crunchyroll receives 4.05 million dollars in venture capital
http://www.centernetworks.com/crunchyro ... sharing-vc

Interview with Vu Nguyen, co-founder of Crunchyroll
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/intervi ... /vu-nguyen

Watch 'Speed Racer' on Crunchyroll
http://www.comics2film.com/index.php?a=story&b=32233

No more manga????
www.crunchyroll.com/manga?tab=index

Keep the effort of not allowing your fansubs on Crunchyroll going. This is 1000-times worse than selling on eBay. Even gingertoys didn't make 4 million fricking dollars.

--- groink

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