How to seed more efficiently?

8thSin · Post by **8thSin** » Nov 27th, '07, 18:10

For some reason, I usually have to seed more than twice as much as the filesize for it to be fully uploaded. This happens for me in all trackers, although some only need about 1.6 or 1.7 times.

I use uTorrent with "initial seeding" on.
"Initial seeding" is supposed to share different blocks to everyone, right? It should theoretically only need me to upload the filesize.
The only reason I can think of is if someone severs connection before sharing downloaded blocks, but there can't possibly be that many. My upload is kind of slow too, so it's obviously not because leechers leaving after completion.

Any tips/settings or better BT clients for initial seeding?

Post by **lilswtangel** » Nov 27th, '07, 18:27

you know, I had the same problem with seeding my uploaded torrents but thought it was like that for everyone else.

The filesize would be 700 MB and I would have to seed well over 1 GB before the torrent is completely uploaded. I never could figure out if it was just me or if had my settings configured incorrectly.

ethidda · Post by **ethidda** » Nov 27th, '07, 18:56

I don't usually do initial seeding, but this is my understanding of how it works:

uTorrent gets info on who has which pieces
It says that it has certain pieces, which others do not have
It shares pieces
It updates info on who has which pieces

Now, if it's a popular torrent, and it doesn't update the info very, very often (every time it finishes uploading a piece), it's going to send doubles of some pieces because it doesn't know that certain peers already have the piece.

Another thing is if a leecher disconnects from YOU, the seeder, then you don't know which pieces he has. He can still be downloading, but just not connected to you. But uTorrent will see that as none of the peers (it's connected to) having the piece, and will upload it again.

seirin · Post by **seirin** » Nov 27th, '07, 19:04

You're not the only one in that position. Sometimes I have to seed twice the file size to complete it. I guess one way is to seed half of it and disconnect? Wait for the others to seed each other and then resume seeding?

8thSin · Post by **8thSin** » Nov 27th, '07, 19:22

ethidda wrote:I don't usually do initial seeding, but this is my understanding of how it works:

uTorrent gets info on who has which pieces
It says that it has certain pieces, which others do not have
It shares pieces
It updates info on who has which pieces

Oh I see... They should've just programmed it to send out all blocks out once, then check what pieces others are missing.

seirin wrote:You're not the only one in that position. Sometimes I have to seed twice the file size to complete it. I guess one way is to seed half of it and disconnect? Wait for the others to seed each other and then resume seeding?

My upload speed is pretty slow (40KB/s), so I know that's not the problem.

I'm uploading a 2GB file right now, uploaded 1.21GB already but the highest peer % is 31.8%. I see availability is 1.328, so even if I disconnect, they would only reach 32.8%, still way less than 60% they should be at now.

I think it used to be slightly better at bitcomet, but that thing is harder to get connections for me somehow. I don't use it anymore.

ethidda · Post by **ethidda** » Nov 27th, '07, 19:46

40kbits/s or 40kBytes/s? Because 40kB/s isn't that slow. It also depends on how many peers there are. If you want to get maximum efficiency, maybe cap your upload at like 15kB/s (if there aren't that many people downloading from you). Or seed two or three files at the same time.

8thSin · Post by **8thSin** » Nov 27th, '07, 21:06

^ It's 40KB/s. I guess it's not that bad, but I know most regular uploaders here are more than 100KB/s.
Plus like, most peers are at identical % in download progress.

Capping didn't work. I was simultaneously seeding 3 files few days ago at 10KB/s each, but no improvement in efficiency at all.

I was hoping for some kind of configuring that can be done, but I guess this is just the way it is. Maybe I'll try BitComet again for next upload and compare.

Post by **lilswtangel** » Nov 27th, '07, 21:12

^that's another problem. I know there are many who can and do seed at 100 KB/S...but I'm one of those whose internet connection gets capped if I upload too much.

I cap my upload speed to about half that....usually averaging 50-60 KB/S and that's uploading a torrent a week (or when I use to upload torrents...it's been a while since I last uploaded anything here).

The problem for me is that it's the same faulty connection no matter which client I use: BitComet, ABC, Azureus, or uTorrent. :T

SacredCultivator · Post by **SacredCultivator** » Nov 30th, '07, 19:36

Please please correct me if I am wrong at what I am about to say...

Seeding is different from Uploading (Via. A Host{Sendspace/Mediafire/etc.}.

Uploading.. You are mainly just uploading it ONCE to ONE server so you will only upload to whatever the filesize is and that's that.

Seeding on the other hand... You are working with PEERS (Not just ONE person(Unless of course only ONE person connects and thats it) So when you seed anything all your Seeding doesn't go to ONE person even with Initial Seeding, initial Seeding to my understanding just makes it to where it will try to make it to where it will devote MOST of its pieces to a Peer for 'faster-completion'{I am not technical in that so I could be wrong}. But in either case, you will almost ALWAYS have to seed PAST the Filesize UNLESS only 1 Peer connects and that is it for until you complete (As you are only sharing with that one Peer). But with Torrents you almost always have MANY peers so the pieces/seeding is spread throughout which results in you having to usually seed more than the original filesize. Which is very understandable. More or less the bigger the file the more you'd have to seed over the size (Usually).

Well that is my short little rant on that...

Again I might have misread your original post and correct me if I am wrong on that...

---
EDIT:
Sorry I don't normally use Initial-Seeding so bleh on my part ><

Taken from uTorrents FAQ
"Does µTorrent support Super Seeding mode?

Yes, it does. Double click on the torrent and check the Initial Seeding box to turn it on. For an explanation of what Super Seeding is, read this page
Please note that Super Seeding should ONLY be used if you are the -ONLY- seeder in the swarm, with no exceptions. It is also only effective with at least 2 peers in the swarm, and should generally not be used when you have high upload speeds."

Hmm yeah on my behalf my max is roughly 90kb, dunno if that is high, but yeah didn't really bother with Initial Seeding...

ethidda · Post by **ethidda** » Nov 30th, '07, 19:48

to sacredcultivator:

Yes, and no. Initial seeding tries to make it so that you only have to upload 1 copy of your file overall. So, say that you have 3 pieces and 3 peers, then initial seeding would have you upload a different piece to each peer so that you only have to upload each piece one time for the peers to have one copy of the file altogether (in theory). So, peer a would get piece 1 and share it. Peer b would get piece 2 and share it. And peer c would get piece 3 and share it. And then you, as the seeder don't need to upload any more.

In reality, it doesn't work out quite as well. What ends up happening, for example, is that while you are uploading piece 3 to peer c (who is slow, in this case), peer a and b and already got pieces 1 and 2. So, now, the peer pool only has 2 of the 3 pieces. When a and b come back to ask you for another piece, your bt client will see that there is not a copy of piece 3, and so it will upload piece 3 to a and b. So, now, you are uploading piece 3 to a, b, and c, and by the time piece 3 finishes uploading to any of the three peers, you've also uploaded at least parts of it to the other two peers. So, you end up seeding more than 1 copy.

Even in larger scale, this happens a lot because bt clients (from what I understand--and this is where it gets slightly fuzzy because I never touched any bt client code) determine which pieces are already in the pool by asking for the peers that it's connected with, instead of keeping a track of pieces that it has sent/is sending. This is to insure that there is, in deed, at least one complete copy amongst the peers, instead of just hoping that every piece sent is still somewhere in the peer pool. However, this causes the redundancy of uploading certain pieces multiple times as mentioned above. (Also, most bt clients will do its best to complete a piece before starting a new one, and they try to get it from the same peer, instead of switching peers, which would be more efficient in an initial seeding situation.)

Gah, that was a lot of technical blah blah.

AkumaX · Post by **AkumaX** » Nov 30th, '07, 19:51

i feel bad for those whom are having bad luck with Super/Initial Seeding. I usually upload around 110-115% with Initial Seeding (from uTorrent) and around 105-110% Super Seeding (with Azureus). But it mostly depends on the Peers that have to share, too.

SacredCultivator · Post by **SacredCultivator** » Nov 30th, '07, 19:54

@ethidda: Yeah that was pretty technical haha. But nah I understand it more with how you explained stuff... Which makes sense as to why in the uTorrent forums they had brief discussions about trying to improve it.

8thSin · Post by **8thSin** » Dec 11th, '07, 21:21

I just realized I forgot to check "Initial seeding" box for uTorrent in my latest upload, but it looks like it's still uploading at same efficiency.

Currently uploaded around 1.82GB of 1.78GB filesize. Highest (and most) completion for peers are 63.5%

Bankai · Post by **Bankai** » Dec 14th, '07, 21:14

Maybe you can try BitTornado too. I've used it on several occasions and it seems to seed well on super-seed mode. I've tried utorrent a few times but it did seem less efficient. Though you might be able to fiddle with the upload settings but you can probably just choose the settings for "dsl/cable fast" since it seems to suit your speed the most.

XrayMind · Post by **XrayMind** » Dec 16th, '07, 19:34

Bit late to this discussion. But here my thoughts on seedings from my experience.

With the REALLY popular files, raw drama and anime, with more than 100 peers near the end of transfer, it doesn't really matter if I initial seeding or not. Because the faster peers will help you seed with what they already downloaded. I usually have to upload 105% to 110% to have whole bunch of completed downloads. But just out of habit, I always check initial seeding on utorrent.

With just popular and not so popular files, I always check the initial seeding. Because I have seen people, mainly those with cable, download like crazy and either never upload or set the upload rate to 5kB/s. Once they finish downloading, they will disappear. I have seen torrents with seed 0, peer 20, completed 1.

utorrent will not use all of your bandwidth in the beginning with initial seeding. But after enough peers, it will. Then near the end, you get lot of people completing their downloads at the same time. So you won't have any problem with the hit & run downloaders.

So the just popular torrent will have to seed around 115% to 135% and the less popular will take 150% or more with initial seeding.

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